XBOX XBOX ONE X Thread : Feel True Power

CerebralTiger

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Terrible move by MS. Allowing the frame rate ceiling to be doubled for multiplayer on Scorpio will exponentially widen the gulf in competitive play within the Xbox ecosystem. Even without doubling the target, achievable frame rate would already vary owing to the bump in CPU clock speed on Scorpio. That's as far as it should have gone. It's already bad enough that people have access to varying quality of internet.

In comparison, other differences such as 900p/1080p on Xbox One vs 4K CBR/4K native on Scorpio are insignificant w.r.t competitive advantage. Hopefully, developers will be wiser than MS and enforce target frame rate parity on both machines of their own accord. There's a reason why Sony enforces it for the PS4 Pro in the first place.
 
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NaNoW

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well this is MS afterall...all they need is a small backlash and they will switch their stance in a sec..this can be a good thing or a bad thing..remember the "DRM is hardcoded into xbox one and cant be removed" to " hey guys, its totally removable"
They never learn the easy way :D
 

Necrokiller

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Multiplayer partiy has always been such a bullshit argument. Even Sony has its player base fooled.

Who is stopping a player to purchase an arcade stick in fighting games and go against players using standard controllers?
Or buyin a top of the line TV with minimal input lag compared to one which incurrs heavy lag?
Or getting a better internet connection by paying more?
Or buying a mouse with high DPI compared to low DPI?
Or buying an expensive mechanical keyboard?

BF1 on base PS4 struggles to hit even 45fps in action heavy 64p Conquest where Pro can maintain 60fps...so where is Sony's parity argument now?

Dont expect games like Destiny 2 to be 60fps on Scorpio and 30fps on original XB1. CPU limits will dictate in such a scenario, not the console manufacturers or developers.
 

NaNoW

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Multiplayer partiy has always been such a bullshit argument..
I would argue that there are 2 sides of every coin. While you can get a slight advantage by spending more money in most multiplayer games, developers shouldn't "force" or ignore this while developing games and should account for making the "playing field level".
 

Necrokiller

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I would argue that there are 2 sides of every coin. While you can get a slight advantage by spending more money in most multiplayer games, developers shouldn't "force" or ignore this while developing games and should account for making the "playing field level".
MP games have been played on PC like this always and there hasn't really been a cry for parity there or a long tradition for developers to lock frame rates on PC. There is no reason whatsoever why it would have a different impact on consoles .

Achieving a "Level playing field" is nigh impossible there are far too many variables involved for FPS to have the most meaningful impact. I could play Overwatch at 200Hz/200 fps but Ill probably get rekt if Im getting 200+ ms ping against someone playing at 60fps getting <50ms ping.
 

Chandoo

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MP games have been played on PC like this always and there hasn't really been a cry for parity there or a long tradition for developers to lock frame rates on PC. There is no reason whatsoever why it would have a different impact on consoles .

Achieving a "Level playing field" is nigh impossible there are far too many variables involved for FPS to have the most meaningful impact. I could play Overwatch at 200Hz/200 fps but Ill probably get rekt if Im getting 200+ ms ping against someone playing at 60fps getting <50ms ping.
Yeah but "PC" isn't a single platform like a playstation or an xbox, PCs are open platform and unlike consoles there's no mandate or 'sharia' that they're all the same specs. With PS and Xbox though, this is the first time we're seeing iterative consoles sharing the same games and multiplayer lobbies. I can understand why they're more hesitant towards keeping it the same for all users.
 

venom

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Isnt it at a normal practice to sacrifice resolution over FPS in MP modes even on the next gen vanilla systems ? Uncharted 4, Gears of War 4 etc while all run at 30 fps in single player always target 60 fps in MP preferring a lower resolution.
 

Journeys End

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i don't see why its a bad move. most of my views are already shared by Necro so i wont repeat that. plus MS is giving more power to the devs, whats wrong with that? only a idiot dev would kill their title by making it 30fps & 60fps on different iterations of the same console.
 

CerebralTiger

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PCs are open platform and unlike consoles there's no mandate or 'sharia' that they're all the same specs.
Even putting aside the variable hardware and refresh rates, fair play isn't even a thing in online MP on PC, given the plethora of client-side hacks that can be performed on the platform. The Xbox One and PS4 have yet to be hacked, therefore there are no exploits outside of in-game ones.

Input devices have largely varying results on PC, but it isn't true to the same extent on PS4/Xbox One. Of course, there's stuff like the Elite controller on Xbox One, but the advantages they offer are nowhere near as substantial. Even the 3rd-party mice only emulate analog movement, and therefore aren't anywhere near as advantageous. Arcade sticks are a preference and not a meaningful advantage in fighting games. There are many who prefer to play with controllers.

Internet latency and display lag (top-of-the-line TVs are the ones with high input lag due to a higher degree of post-process, not vice versa lol) are the only two variables involved on XBO (at least up until now) and PS4, and even when you combine them, the advantage that a doubled frame rate ceiling can bring is far more substantial. Matchmaking is pretty decent in most of the multiplayer games I play on the PS4, and I can't remember the last time I was put in a multiplayer match against players with high pings. We get good enough pings with Middle Eastern players, and of course there are also local players.

Regardless of all this, the important thing to note here is that just because one or two variables exist, adding another variable like frame rate (a substantial one at that) only makes things worse.

Isnt it at a normal practice to sacrifice resolution over FPS in MP modes even on the next gen vanilla systems ? Uncharted 4, Gears of War 4 etc while all run at 30 fps in single player always target 60 fps in MP preferring a lower resolution.
Yeah, that's a normal practice, and a good one. However, the practice where, say, a game's frame rate is limited to 30fps on PS4 and the ceiling is raised to 60fps on the PS4 Pro is where it gets problematic. A rare example of this in the PS4 ecosystem is Dark Souls 3. The PvP there is an unbalanced mess as a result, because even though the Pro's performance averages at around 40fps, it's still a noteworthy advantage over the PS4.

Alternatively, a rare example of a game adhering to the same fps ceiling on both the PS4 and PS4 Pro and becoming unbalanced is Battlefield 1. The Pro gets a 10-15fps advantage over the PS4 in taxing scenarios owing to the bump given to its CPU clock speed.

Outside of these two games, there's literally no other game that presents a noteworthy performance advantage for the PS4 Pro in a multiplayer scenario.

only a idiot dev would kill their title by making it 30fps & 60fps on different iterations of the same console.
It's not fair to call Playground Studios idiotic. They're among the best devs in the industry these days. (Note: MS considers Windows a part of the Xbox ecosystem, so kind of the same platform lol).

MS doesn't seem to care about frame rate parity in MP anyway. They allow Xbox One/PC crossplay in some of their existing and future first-party titles (e.g. Forza Horizon 3, with PC players being able to run the game at double the frame rate). The Scorpio will simply be another addition to this variable ecosystem.
 
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Necrokiller

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plus MS is giving more power to the devs, whats wrong with that?
Yep, leaving it upto the devs is the way to go. Sony's pseudo-parity approach is terrible since the Pro will inherently have a peformance advantage due to more stable frame rates anyway. And thats exactly the case with games like BF1. Pro users always have an "unfair advantage". Communicating with their player base that they strive for "parity" comes off as laughable then.
 
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BumperJumper

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I find it hilarious that bf1 keeps getting brought up when the series is the only one that presents an advantage on the pro.
 

Radical

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They are only doing this to 1up the pro incase a 3rd party title remains @ 30 fps.
Anyway, Multiplayer experience is a constant and it should remain as such! Any change to that will only result in garbage.
 

CerebralTiger

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I find it hilarious that bf1 keeps getting brought up when the series is the only one that presents an advantage on the pro.
You're right, since the introduction of boost mode, it's the Battlefield games and a handful of other earlier games that couldn't previously hit their target frame rate more consistently. Though, w.r.t. to Pro enhanced multiplayer games, it's just BF1 and Battleborn where the frame rate differs notably within the target limit. These are all anomalies, and the level playing field w.r.t. frame rate exists for a vast majority of the multiplayer games within the Playstation ecosystem.

They are only doing this to 1up the pro incase a 3rd party title remains @ 30 fps.
Good point. They're probably trying to use this as some sort of marketing leverage against the Pro.
 
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Chandoo

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I find it hilarious that bf1 keeps getting brought up when the series is the only one that presents an advantage on the pro.

Also, BF1 is still aiming for 60 FPS on both. It's not like the Base is 30 and Pro is uncapped or something. There's no built-in advantage.

Even on Scorpio, I am not expecting 30 FPS games to be uncapped across the board.
 

Dr Beowulf

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Didn't MS also say that devs will strive for fps parity in MP? Its HIGHLY unlikely that we'll be seeing 30fps in multiplayer on a weaker Xbox hardware while being 60fps on Scorpio. Its speculation and I doubt anybody will be that stupid to implement it. Hell, when word gets out, the sheer optics and backlash from the community will cause devs to rethink such a decision.
 

Journeys End

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It's not fair to call Playground Studios idiotic. They're among the best devs in the industry these days. (Note: MS considers Windows a part of the Xbox ecosystem, so kind of the same platform lol).

MS doesn't seem to care about frame rate parity in MP anyway. They allow Xbox One/PC crossplay in some of their existing and future first-party titles (e.g. Forza Horizon 3, with PC players being able to run the game at double the frame rate). The Scorpio will simply be another addition to this variable ecosystem.
thanx for cementing my point with this perfect example. Horizon 3 is probably the best way to judge how FPS parity DOES NOT make a difference when there are shit ton of other variables to factor in e.g lag, input latency and genre. u made me repeat Necro's post man :S btw i play the MP of this game on regular basis and even with 60+ FPS, getting top 3 position is hell difficult for me due to latency. things might turn slightly in my favor if i was playing with someone in Pakistan like say USUF, no wait it depends more on HP of my car than the FPS of my platform :D
coming back to my originally quoted post, only a idiot dev would kill their title by making it 30fps & 60fps on different iterations of the same console where FPS are the deciding factor in competitive component of the gameplay like FPS, beat-em-up etc.
 

CerebralTiger

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thanx for cementing my point with this perfect example. Horizon 3 is probably the best way to judge how FPS parity DOES NOT make a difference when there are shit ton of other variables to factor in e.g lag, input latency and genre.
On the contrary, I didn't cement your point. The existence of two variables doesn't mean there needs to be an additional variable, especially one that brings a more noteworthy impact than the other two. Genre is not a variable here, btw. A higher frame rate is beneficial in multiplayer regardless of genre.

btw i play the MP of this game on regular basis and even with 60+ FPS, getting top 3 position is hell difficult for me due to latency.
It's not due to latency, but due to the fact that Forza Horizon 3 is a poor port on PC. Up until recently, it ran on a single CPU thread, resulting in stuttering at higher than 30fps.

Spoiler: show
Of course, the PC version's biggest issue is the fact that Playground's 30Hz iteration of the Forza engine really doesn't want to scale beyond 30fps, even on PC. We've documented the issues as they stand right now extensively, but the bottom line is that pushing beyond 30fps and hitting a solid 60 requires inordinately powerful hardware. A Titan X Pascal system can't sustain 1080p60 with 4x MSAA enabled - but it hits the target at 4K (!) with multi-sampling turned off. There are also scalability issues on mainstream GPUs too. While 30fps is the best choice for those with older Intel i5s and GTX 970-level hardware, you can push higher with adaptive sync displays and frame-rate limiters.

Otherwise though, it's 30fps that gives the best, most consistent experience and you don't need to nix MSAA. Indeed, the GTX 970 is perfectly happy to ramp up to 8x MSAA with the 30fps cap in place, and while we're on the subject, it's interesting to note that Forza Horizon 3 is one of the very, very few PC titles that actually frame-paces 30fps correctly - each update persisting for the required 33ms. The downside is that controls seem slightly muggier than the Xbox One version operating at the same frame-rate.
Face-Off: Forza Horizon 3 • Eurogamer.net

I believe things are better now, after a recent patch added multi-thread support. I have the ultimate edition, but haven't been able to test it on my PC yet.

Regardless, I've played a couple of 60fps racing games that operate at half the frame rate when playing online in split-screen, and the difference is clear to me.

no wait it depends more on HP of my car than the FPS of my platform :D
Haha I hope this is not a serious argument. I mean, what's stopping your opponent from picking the same car as you?
 
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Necrokiller

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btw i play the MP of this game on regular basis and even with 60+ FPS, getting top 3 position is hell difficult for me due to latency. things might turn slightly in my favor if i was playing with someone in Pakistan like say USUF, no wait it depends more on HP of my car than the FPS of my platform :D
You are most definitely playing against people running Horizon 3 at 120fps+, so in any case, they have an advantage over you lol
And every time my player dies in a MP shooter, I just know my opponents are running the game at double the frame rates. There is no way anyone can play better than me on a level playing field (sm1) (sm1) (sm1)
 
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