Are we defending Islam?

[Leon]

Mods please don't delete this post. I am not getting personal, Just asking a simple question with all due respect.
According to [MENTION=12458]Benighted[/MENTION] our friend [MENTION=2413]mafiadog[/MENTION] got that average mindset that every normal Muslim has right? And obviously this mindset was developed by the teachings of The Holy Quran/Islam correct?
So i ask you [MENTION=2413]mafiadog[/MENTION] with all due respect. All that you have learned about Islam in your life. Do you even feel close to what the ISIS are doing or what is your opinion, What they are doing is right or wrong?
And if your answer is no then tell how can any other Muslim with the same mindset go on and start judging/hurting people? There is my point that we all also follow the very same religion that you are saying "promotes" terrorism. We also have many Non-Muslim friends and we respect them all. They all deserve to live equally as we do. We dont go on waging war amongst them or actually stand with ISIS for doing so.
If 90% of the Muslims follow the SAME religion that the other "extremist" muslims follow. Tell me why such a huge part of our population still remains at peace with the world if our religion teaches terrorism?


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[mafiadog]

Mods please don't delete this post. I am not getting personal, Just asking a simple question with all due respect.
According to [MENTION=12458]Benighted[/MENTION] our friend [MENTION=2413]mafiadog[/MENTION] got that average mindset that every normal Muslim has right? And obviously this mindset was developed by the teachings of The Holy Quran/Islam correct?
So i ask you [MENTION=2413]mafiadog[/MENTION] with all due respect. All that you have learned about Islam in your life. Do you even feel close to what the ISIS are doing or what is your opinion, What they are doing is right or wrong?
And if your answer is no then tell how can any other Muslim with the same mindset go on and start judging/hurting people? There is my point that we all also follow the very same religion that you are saying "promotes" terrorism. We also have many Non-Muslim friends and we respect them all. They all deserve to live equally as we do. We dont go on waging war amongst them or actually stand with ISIS for doing so.
If 90% of the Muslims follow the SAME religion that the other "extremist" muslims follow. Tell me why such a huge part of our population still remains at peace with the world if our religion teaches terrorism?


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Glad you asked. So let me clarify my opinion on Isis. Before that let's give a brief introduction : I know Isis very closely. I know people who have joined Isis. I've been debating with such people in Karachi from past 10+ years , some of these people I debated ended up being caught in safoora goth case. To understand these people you need to understand that they partially use Islam as justification for their vicious beliefs. I hate Isis , I hate them as a whole and to their last leader. To me they have nothing to do with Islam. They (the organization) not the people. Speaking of those who Join Isis are some of the best Muslims there were. You see when a righteous Muslim sees Isis from outside they fall for a mirage of Islamic land with Islamic rules. We shouldn't hate those who joins them as they are misled , later brainwashed and then misguided towards humanity. But moreover this is because of constant bombings targeting civilians , those who cherish human rights now bombed Hiroshima nagasaki destroyed cities killed thousands claim to not kill any civilians now. Isis does same what the coalition does , they both are two extremes have nothing to do with religion. Its a fight between two groups , religion is merely an ideology one group claims to hold while other holds democracy . Isis is more about vengeance , but this vengeance is directed towards Muslims non Muslims alike. Their leadership purely selected from ex US inmates , ex Saddam bathist regime. Relating them to Islam is ridiculous. They might practice our religion like I said those who join are mukhlis (sincere) , however once they join then they are no more from us. A bit confusing yes but you cannot question someone's imaan so easily. What would be a reason for a citizen in UK to join a fight in Iraq ? To me the answer is his sincerity and understanding of religion. The deaths and hatred towards the invader. However they fail to realize that their group policies have vested interests , they are left astray and there is no coming back.

The Islam hater who writes here against Isis my question is why does he even hate Isis ? They are killing Muslims , so far all their attacks have been directed towards Muslims or sects. Its like a non believer saying 1000 years back that hajjaj bin yosaf (a Muslim by all standards ) is evil. Yes he was evil , but what is it to you ? He killed Muslims , sahabas , tabiyeens , a killer of 100,000 men. There are extremists amongst us , there are innocent whom they bomb everyday and there are moderates. However is our inner conflicts affecting you ? We always had conflicts inside , I'm sorry that you are unable to travel because of us , simply leave. However if you claim to be part of this county then live like any citizen without questioning our believes.



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[Distress]

World population is 6 or 7 billion out of which 1 billion are muslims living in every part of the world. If Islam orders terrorism and killing of all non muslims then atheists/ other religions/ non believers should have gone extinct by now.

 

[Benighted]

Again, i would ask as to what made you arrive at your conclusion that Islam has promoted hatred and violence. You need not take a risk. You can atleast argue in favor of your theory. All you are doing is presenting your theory and expecting me to accept it without debate. The same that you accuse me of.
As for religious leaders praising the killers, i have already cleared that up. You cannot hold a concept responsible for its followers twisting it. That is neither logical neither a sound analysis.

I have no wish to insult. Insult is what fools use when they don't have anything better to say. You have not provided me anything to do mental gymnastics on. You are to this time still passing your opinion. So no thinking or mental effort is required by me. You say you cannot accept and debate anything you see as BAD. I am saying the same thing. It is you who THINKS islam is bad, so it is your opinion, not hard facts as you claim. You can definitely share it as your opinion but not as a sound analysis. I for one would always be ready to debate on whatever concept you chose. You even said the Prophet(PBUH) was not of as high a character as muslims claim. I entertained your theory but you provided no argument to back it up. So it stood as a false claim.

I have read my holy books and all the assorted criticisms as well. Had i not read them i would ve been less accomodating and more insulting. I have yet to find anything remotely condoning killing of innocents. The very basis of our discussion.

I for one did not view this as stupid bickering. You were the one to ask for a mature debate. That's what it is. Then you backed out when i counter-questioned your thesis.You wish to not take it any further, that's fine by me as well.

Mafiadog has very strongly objected to my posting of Islamic references in this thread. It's not risky for you, but I have my life to worry about.

I am not expecting you to believe me without debate. I just find it strange that you have never read anything violent in Quran or Hadith. If I was holding Islam responsible without knowing a thing about, then my argument would indeed be unsound, and that would simply prejudice. But I am convinced it does because I am not ignorant about it. I come from a very religious Islamic family and have personally studied both Quran and Hadith. It's not like I was born and live in an environment where Islam is painted bad for no reason.

And I never claimed I have provided you with anything to perform gymnastics on. I haven't. I was only predicting the direction this argument would take IN CASE I provided anything, and the eventual futility of it. I don't want to go there because I don't think it will accomplish anything and only increase tensions within this thread. I don't want that. I would be willing to take the risk if there was any chance of accomplishing anything by it, but I am certain it won't, as I have an awful experience in debates like these, and that thing I said about gymnastics was me speaking from experience.

I never asked you to accept my views on face value. All I asked was to consider and objectively ask yourself the question why Islamic extremism is so strong in today's world and offered a cause, that in my opinion, one necessarily must arrive at when one traces the relevant events to its roots. I am going reverse in the chain of cause-and-effect and starting with the effects, which is the growing Islamic extremism. In one of my posts, I mentioned that it is irrelevant in my opinion whether "real" Islam is peaceful or not. My intention is not to debate the meaning of verses, as that's an infinite merry-go-round that never ends in a definite conclusion. Therefore, I feel it necessary to use a different approach, which is simpler. This approach only needs observed facts for its postulates (i.e No uncertain assumptions):

Fact 1: Islamic extremism is real and stronger than ever and continues to grow. Do you doubt that?
Fact 2: An alarming number of Islamic leaders do not find anything seriously wrong with it. Do you doubt that?

Conclusion: Islam is having the effect of spreading extremism, either intentionally or unintentionally.

You can chalk that up to wrong interpretation if you like, but the fact still remains. Let's assume it really is misinterpretation. Well, in that case, there's obviously something about Islam that makes it very easy to misinterpret, (The increasing frequency of terror acts is testament to that) and we are back to square one. The problem still remains. The danger posed by Islam still remains. And it will remain as long as Islam remains.

At the end of the day, it's the practitioner that represents any ideology. What is a beautiful ideology worth if its practice brings so much evil in this world?

 

[mafiadog]

I'm still not done yet. Matlab ke isis ka jo masla he woh humara he. They are killing us , then why would a non believer need to tell us that they are evil ? Humay pata he they are apko kiya problem he ? You want to hear that they are not Muslims ? And when we say you strike back by saying but they kill in the name of religion. Haan they do and they kill us , whereas we should trust bomber of Nagasaki etc to tell us that someone is evil ? And you are claiming the world has changed !??? How long was it that nuclear bombs were dropped and cities were wiped out along with its citizens ? The world is the same place as before , all it takes is a trump brexit to fuel the fire and you might have another crazy war. Be realistic , the world is about realist principles , rationalism never have lasted long. I hate when scholars and kids say world has changed , have you become immortal ? Apne nuclear bombs kiya drawing room me sajanay ke liye develop keray howe he ? Matlab Hollywood pagal he ke her hafte end of the world dikhata he ? You think thousands can stop billions from waging war ?

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[mafiadog]

Mafiadog has very strongly objected to my posting of Islamic references in this thread. It's not risky for you, but I have my life to worry about.

I am not expecting you to believe me without debate. I just find it strange that you have never read anything violent in Quran or Hadith. If I was holding Islam responsible without knowing a thing about, then my argument would indeed be unsound, and that would simply prejudice. But I am convinced it does because I am not ignorant about it. I come from a very religious Islamic family and have personally studied both Quran and Hadith. It's not like I was born and live in an environment where Islam is painted bad for no reason.

And I never claimed I have provided you with anything to perform gymnastics on. I haven't. I was only predicting the direction this argument would take IN CASE I provided anything, and the eventual futility of it. I don't want to go there because I don't think it will accomplish anything and only increase tensions within this thread. I don't want that. I would be willing to take the risk if there was any chance of accomplishing anything by it, but I am certain it won't, as I have an awful experience in debates like these, and that thing I said about gymnastics was me speaking from experience.

I never asked you to accept my views on face value. All I asked was to consider and objectively ask yourself the question why Islamic extremism is so strong in today's world and offered a cause, that in my opinion, one necessarily must arrive at when one traces the relevant events to its roots. I am going reverse in the chain of cause-and-effect and starting with the effects, which is the growing Islamic extremism. In one of my posts, I mentioned that it is irrelevant in my opinion whether "real" Islam is peaceful or not. My intention is not to debate the meaning of verses, as that's an infinite merry-go-round that never ends in a definite conclusion. Therefore, I feel it necessary to use a different approach, which is simpler. This approach only needs observed facts for its postulates (i.e No uncertain assumptions):

Fact 1: Islamic extremism is real and stronger than ever and continues to grow. Do you doubt that?
Fact 2: An alarming number of Islamic leaders do not find anything seriously wrong with it. Do you doubt that?

Conclusion: Islam is having the effect of spreading extremism, either intentionally or unintentionally.

You can chalk that up to wrong interpretation if you like, but the fact still remains. Let's assume it really is misinterpretation. Well, in that case, there's obviously something about Islam that makes it very easy to misinterpret, (The increasing frequency of terror acts is testament to that) and we are back to square one. The problem still remains. The danger posed by Islam still remains. And it will remain as long as Islam remains.

At the end of the day, it's the practitioner that represents any ideology. What is a beautiful ideology worth if its practice brings so much evil in this world?

I respect your views. You are very open about your beliefs and I have no right to question them. I appreciate if you honor me with the same enthusiasm. The only reason you and I shouldn't give references is because I agree that what you read in our books is the truth , we cherish peace as much as we cherish war. Its just that peace has a totally different meaning to us.

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[Leon]

Mafiadog has very strongly objected to my posting of Islamic references in this thread. It's not risky for you, but I have my life to worry about.

As far as Pakgamers is concerned you should feel free to say anything you like even if it is 100% offensive. You are going to get away with it when you say it on the internet that is for sure(Considering the possibility). Even taking into consideration the extreme possibility we cannot see your IP address or anything to trace you, lol.
You are repeating this very line in every post. At this moment this is only becoming a means to get away with what you are saying and not providing any authentic confirmation(from Quran or Hadith) if any.
No one can harm you from the Internet, Atleast not the PG members who have no idea of your whereabouts.

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[EternalBlizzard]

My name is ASKnASK, and I agree with @Benighted.

If the holy book is being misinterpreted bypeople, whose fault is it? Why is it written in a way that allows misinterpretation?

If this was supposed to stand till the end of time, it should have been written the same way lawyers write privacy policies for companies, covering every single loophole. Since god is all-knowing, it shouldn't have been hard.

But that was the whole point :s You answered the question yourself. Since God is all-knowing it wasn't hard for the Quran to be that way but it still is. That means God wanted it to be that way which means there must be a reason for this which we can't understand. So fighting on "why" is it that way doesn't help. Just because it is written in a way it allows misinterpretation doesn't mean Islam is at fault here. Humans want everything to be spoonfeeded. This conversation is similar to an argument i heard somewhere. It was a question by a non muslim that if God is so kind and loving why do poor exist? people with no arms or legs? Doesn't that make God a sadist nauzubillah, but no it doesn't.

If God can't be blamed for creating poor and people with no arms and legs and other tragedies how can we blame His relegion or His book for being written in a way that allows misinterpretation? Life isn't easy, It's a test so why do you think everything would be so easy to understand.

 

[Benighted]

As far as Pakgamers is concerned you should feel free to say anything you like even if it is 100% offensive. You are going to get away with it when you say it on the internet that is for sure(Considering the possibility). Even taking into consideration the extreme possibility we cannot see your IP address or anything to trace you, lol.
You are repeating this very line in every post. At this moment this is only becoming a means to get away with what you are saying and not providing any authentic confirmation(from Quran or Hadith) if any.
No one can harm you from the Internet, Atleast not the PG members who have no idea of your whereabouts.

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I did give a few references in page 4 or 5. You can start from there.

 

[Leon]

On page 4 i see. But by saying that "you worry about your life" are you really serious about worrying about it due to saying anything on an internet forum?

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[Gizmo]

But that was the whole point :s You answered the question yourself. Since God is all-knowing it wasn't hard for the Quran to be that way but it still is. That means God wanted it to be that way which means there must be a reason for this which we can't understand.

That's the sort of circular logic that annoys me alot with this sort of stuff. Maybe we should stop doing that..... just sayin.

 

[Leon]

That's the sort of circular logic that annoys me alot with this sort of stuff. Maybe we should stop doing that..... just sayin.

About the circular logic:

This basically. If you can't handle what's being discussed in the thread and it offends you, then don't bother showing up. Otherwise, let's have a good, rational discussion.

I think the rules apply to all the people.


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[Gizmo]

^^What's your point? Pointing out flaws in someone's argument isn't against the rules last time I checked.

 

[EternalBlizzard]

That's the sort of circular logic that annoys me alot with this sort of stuff. Maybe we should stop doing that..... just sayin.

Sorry giz too dumb to find that circular reasoning :s wut's wrong ?

 

[Benighted]

Sorry giz too dumb to find that circular reasoning :s wut's wrong ?

You assumed your own conclusion. You take it as a given that Quran comes from an all-knowing God.

 

[TrueCoolGuy]

Sorry giz too dumb to find that circular reasoning :s wut's wrong ?

Your post was:

But that was the whole point :s You answered the question yourself. Since God is all-knowing it wasn't hard for the Quran to be that way but it still is. That means God wanted it to be that way which means there must be a reason for this which we can't understand.

God purposefully made the Quran easy to misinterpret -> We can't understand God's will -> Why did he make it so? -> Because God is all knowing -> (repeat)

This is your train of thought. Your point A is supported by point B, point B is supported by point A. We are unable to interpret God's will from the Quran. God made it so. Why did God make it so? We can't interpret God's will.

No matter which way you go. Your conclusion leads back to your premise. You never actually substantiate either claims, you just point to the previous claim as substantiation for the current one.

I think the rules apply to all the people.

I think you're confusing circular logic with hypocrisy. Even though Gizmo is not being hypocritical at all. He agreed to my suggestion that people should leave if they can't handle the discussion and to not call for an end to the thread because they can't handle it. He's neither calling an end to the thread nor showing inability to handle the discussion.

People in this thread need to quit trying to catch each other using their own arguments to gain some kind of "Gotcha!" points. This isn't how you win debates. Basically, focus more on what the person is trying to say than how it was said.

 

[Leon]

[MENTION=37876]TrueCoolGuy[/MENTION] I dont think you should quote me if i dont have any right to reply back. My posts get deleted everytime. If you and your friend want to have the last words so much then be it.
You see the post # 91,92 and 93 these aren't related to the topic in anyway. Yet are still not deleted while all the other posts were.

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[Benighted]

People in this thread need to quit trying to catch each other using their own arguments to gain some kind of "Gotcha!" points. This isn't how you win debates. Basically, focus more on what the person is trying to say than how it was said.

This should be made the header for this thread.

 

[puppet]

Stop fighting guys and theres no need to teach someone that how to argue and create another discussion, I deleted posts to remove distractions so you guys wouldnt talk anything else other than the topic , abby strictly mentioned the guidelines but nobody cares

I am gonna close the thread for now unless abby allows it again.

 

[AbbY]

[MENTION=37876]TrueCoolGuy[/MENTION] I dont think you should quote me if i dont have any right to reply back. My posts get deleted everytime. If you and your friend want to have the last words so much then be it.
You see the post # 91,92 and 93 these aren't related to the topic in anyway. Yet are still not deleted while all the other posts were.

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Rest assured, no mods are against you or anyone else.

I'm personally moderating this thread as actively as I can. I've deleted offtopic posts and personal insults by everyone involved, be it a regular member, an xtreme member or a mod.

No one said that you don't have the right to reply back, but reply to the THREAD and the TOPIC that's being discussed, not to petty fights trying to undermine someone or to prove that they are wrong.

_____


Let me let you guys in on a little secret. No one's winning this debate. We're here for a mature discussion. If you think you're going to change the viewpoint of the other person, you're likely mistaken. The only reason we've allowed this thread to stay, contrary to the trend of late, is to hear everyone out and have a mature debate, not have a debate where people start cursing each other.

______


[MENTION=12458]Benighted[/MENTION], as much as I have been lenient in everything, it's time for me to openly warn you this time. Present your arguments WITHOUT contradicting or hurting the belief of Muslims. I don't care what religion you follow. I don't care if you believe that there is a God or not. I don't care if you even believe in the Prophet. Muslims believe that God is the All-knowing and all-seeing. The basic Muslim teachings and followings are NOT up for debate in this thread. The Prophets character, the contents of the Quran in general are NOT up for discussions or nitpicking in this thread.

"You take it as a given that Quran comes from an all-knowing God.". Yes. We Muslims do. This is not up for debate here and I will not allow that. Discuss the topic at hand, not the contents of the Quran. This goes for everyone. This is the final time I'm warning everyone here.