Are we defending Islam?

[AbbY]

Okay guys enough is enough. Mature discussions involve MUTUAL RESPECT. I've tolerated a few posts with people taking direct or indirect jabs at people and borderline insulting the other person, implied or explicitly. I'm not going to allow that and as a result have a flame war.

If you're mature enough to post in this thread, you're mature enough to follow the rules so as to respect people when replying to them, EVEN if you feel the other guy is an utter douche with a totally idiotic viewpoint.

 

[ASKnASK]

My name is ASKnASK, and I agree with [MENTION=12458]Benighted[/MENTION].

If the holy book is being misinterpreted bypeople, whose fault is it? Why is it written in a way that allows misinterpretation?

If this was supposed to stand till the end of time, it should have been written the same way lawyers write privacy policies for companies, covering every single loophole. Since god is all-knowing, it shouldn't have been hard.

 

[NaNoW]

You have missed the point I was trying to make. So I will repeat it again.

Bhai how can you not see the contradiction after contradiction you present ?
Once you say this :

.. read quran and hadith and make up your own mind. Who told you to follow the "teachers"? who are they anyway?

and continuing in the same sentence you say this :

.have you actually talked to a scholar in detail? they will school the hell out of you and you will then realize that you never actually talked to a real "teacher"..

?
You cant have both things. This is exactly what you did before.
I personally have talked to and read most book from multiple aalims of all major sects present in Pakistan and even non muslims. And I tried to do this from as central and nonbasied attitude as I could, which I know I cant fully achieve for obvious reasons. I already talked about what I feel about real "Teachers" in above post. How much education (religious and otherwise) they have and what research they have done to qualify for that position is clear for all to see. No point in repeating what I said.

Again a huge contradiction is this

and it is not like these people are not proven wrong. These people are proven wrong many times but their is that fact also known as "fitna" where one turns a blind eye to overall wisdom and take one or two rare instances to legalize things that are illegal.

First you said you dont believed in sects and then you proceed to argue how particular sects are wrong. Let me translate it in other terms, you said you dont believe in sects because you believe that your own logic to be the ONLY CORRECT Muslims. May I ask who proved them to be wrong? Those real "Teachers" who you talked about ? Where have they got their knowledge ? Why dont you conduct the experiment that I asked you. Visit Aalims of different sects and ask them for proof and tell them I only demand proof from Quran and nothing else. Every Aalim will provide you evidence from Quran itself. And this is exactly what I am talking about. Quran itself also says that there are "muhkam" and "muteshabih" ayats. Who will explain those to you ? How can you view Quran from a non-historical point of view when Quran is a book of contextual history in itself. You yourself said above people nitpick things from Quran without looking at 10 ayats before that, so you obviously understand the concept of context. Where will you take context from?

Do you really expect me to believe that (please dont take this personally) you or those guys are so knowledgeable that you can decipher Quran, which holds the key to every desease known to mankind, every ill that confounds men and every problem that may arise. "Ilm hasal karo chahey chein jana parhey" was the original concept. Not bound yourself to one hardline way of thinking and defending that to your grave.

Yes, I am confused. But I admit that I am confused. And by admitting this, atleast I am on a path to get even more knowledge and close to truth . Instead of living this bubble of " I am right and everyone is wrong" will limit your own growt.
Trying to educate ourselves so that we can prove others wronge, should not be the concept. Get all sorts of education to get closer to the truth should be. And this is not "Fitna". Asking questions is NOT FITNA. Not answering them properly and misguiding people to follow due to lack of knowledge is FITNA. If our so called real "Scholars" and people like you and I, cant decipher Quran entirley and then we try to prove our sect to be 100% correct from Quran, THAT is Fitna. What 99% of our molvis do is fitna. Lets see if anyone dares to ask questions from them and live to see the day. If you dont know the answer say so, no harm done.
I try to gain knowledge from whatever and whichever sources I can. And that is the Islam I believe in.​

 

[Leon]

About some discussion that might be useful. Realise how among all these Pakistan is ending up getting all the blame for whatever ISIS is doing right now.
Blast in Saudia and they blamed that on a Pakistani citizen that was actually the victim of the blast. It did clear up later but still.
Same with the Bangladesh terror attacks. The Indian media gave the news fire and blamed it on Pakistan aswell which was later cleared up by the Bangladeshi minister.
The main point is, Whatever is happening is actually really weakening the strength of our country.
We all know atleast 90% of Pakistanis have nothing to with any terrorist attacks happening in the world yet we are still the first one to be blamed at if anything happens. We are not the only Muslim country in the world either.
So where do we stand as a nation?

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[Leon]

My name is ASKnASK, and I agree with [MENTION=12458]Benighted[/MENTION].

If the holy book is being misinterpreted bypeople, whose fault is it? Why is it written in a way that allows misinterpretation?

If this was supposed to stand till the end of time, it should have been written the same way lawyers write privacy policies for companies, covering every single loophole. Since god is all-knowing, it shouldn't have been hard.

Ok so there are several other religious books that have orders to kill people that do not follow. Why are Muslims the only one who "misinterpret"?

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[ASKnASK]

Ok so there are several other religious books that have orders to kill people that do not follow. Why are Muslims the only one who "misinterpret"?

Because those people have grown past this phase that we are in. They don't take their holy book as the final word in all matters. They have realized that times have changed and that something that was written over 2000 years ago can't be applied in this day and age without change.

 

[mafiadog]

Because those people have grown past this phase that we are in. They don't take their holy book as the final word in all matters. They have realized that times have changed and that something that was written over 2000 years ago can't be applied in this day and age without change.

1000 years ago when Mongols invaded I bet someone did say times have changed and we need to change stuff to make it more relevant to modern times. Nothing has changed , the Quran and sunnah lives on till eternity. Just because you're living in 2016 doesn't mean you forget 1916 , there was once a league of nations too , we political sciences students now write essays on diminishing role of united nations as well. Islam , democracy , communism , nationalism are all ideologies which are stronger and will remain throughout times. Each trying to empower the other , and times have seen rise of all above ideologies. Do not make assumptions on ones lifetime , these ideologies have survived for 1000s of years and will continue to do so. Islam is a complete way of life. It doesn't need defending as ideologies can never be destroyed.

Times we live in might be of trouble but there have been worst before. Times we live in might be corrupt , but there have been worst. In all times Muslims hold the rope of Allah's religion , of his prophet , sahabas , tabiyeen and so on. If there are 100s who will misinterpret the religion then there will be 1000s who will interpret it correctly. There will be amongst Muslims people who will stay steadfast , on the right way. There will be extremists , there will be sects and there will be chaos all foretold.

Is there a fix ? Unfortunately not , there is no fix for the loops. Its a cycle , that's why we are humans. We will continue to have infighting's , wars and some notion of safety security. That's why the world is a trial according to our religion. It was never meant to be about everlasting peace. But should we not strive for peace ? Yes we should but to Islam the only means to peace is if all either become Muslims or pay jizya for protection. If this seems too evil then there is other ideologies with same goals and same applications. Democracy is the biggest example.

To me personally the solution is to believe in something , live and let live. Islam demands more but then fallacy of human nature.

It's not mullahs who interpret the Qur'an , there is something called consensus of Muslim ummah , what we all practice is what was defined by the shariah (the way how prophet saw described things and what to do). Hating a preacher will do no good , teaching hate will yield you nothing But people like Isis. How turbulent would be the times right after umar R.A when the chosen righteous sahabas went for each other's neck. Surely there wasn't a worst time than that when the very basis of your religion is shook to the core. Guess what ? We made out and conquered half the world.





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[criticalerror]

Been a day since i posted and already many new questions have arisen without the previous ones being answered.
[MENTION=12458]Benighted[/MENTION]
You have again sidestepped everything i said and asked and launched a tirade which is a mix of your own hatred for religion and some anti-religion texts you ve read.You still haven't answered as to how exactly Islam promotes terrorism. And what you presented does not equate to evidence, rather it is mere conjecture on your part.
Calling me immature while at the same time demonstrating sheer disrespect is quite ironic.
The example of Lèse-majesté was not used to justify the law but an education for you on the norms of society. It is still a grave offense to criticize any royal family in any country. Why can't the same argument apply to the royal families? The law of Blasphemy is an intricate subject which you cannot discuss if you are not willing to present any logical argument. Also, the law of Blasphemy is NOT the topic of this thread. Terrorism and Blasphemy may appear the same but in reality are quite different topics altogether.

As for my apparent state of denial, that is again your opinion. I have not denied any Hard fact you presented(i.e none). Automatically assuming that thousands of people killed is because Islam promotes hatred and violence, that too without any sound argument, is the definition of ignorance.
You have accused me of being illogical yet have presented nothing and taken your leave. I have had many a discussion on such topics without the liberals/agnostics having to resort to insult of the Prophet or islam in general. Since you yourself claim to not be able to discuss without insulting the religion, you have nothing to present and nothing to argue. Had my dogma been vague, i would have nothing to argue and no rebuttals to the hard facts(or lack thereof) presented by yourself.
The gist of your entire argument is Islam is a violent religion because i said so, littered with out of context incidents and verses. That's what it looks like from here.
[MENTION=1601]ASKnASK[/MENTION]
The reason for Quran not being plain is because of your own lack of education. You cannot expect to understand high school level science without having learnt the basics of science in lower classes. Similar is the case with Quran. You must educate yourself enough so the Quran actually does look as plain as it was intended. The first word of the Quran, when revealed, was "Read". This inspite of the fact that the Prophet(PBUH) could not read. Surely the Lord was aware of this. Why then did he order his messenger(PBUH) to read? Because the Lord wanted the Prophet(PBUH) and his followers to be educated and learned. That education should be both worldly as well as religious.

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[HAMMER of THOR]

You have missed the point I was trying to make. So I will repeat it again.

Bhai how can you not see the contradiction after contradiction you present ?
Once you say this :
and continuing in the same sentence you say this :
?
You cant have both things. This is exactly what you did before.
I personally have talked to and read most book from multiple aalims of all major sects present in Pakistan and even non muslims. And I tried to do this from as central and nonbasied attitude as I could, which I know I cant fully achieve for obvious reasons. I already talked about what I feel about real "Teachers" in above post. How much education (religious and otherwise) they have and what research they have done to qualify for that position is clear for all to see. No point in repeating what I said.

Again a huge contradiction is this


First you said you dont believed in sects and then you proceed to argue how particular sects are wrong. Let me translate it in other terms, you said you dont believe in sects because you believe that your own logic to be the ONLY CORRECT Muslims. May I ask who proved them to be wrong? Those real "Teachers" who you talked about ? Where have they got their knowledge ? Why dont you conduct the experiment that I asked you. Visit Aalims of different sects and ask them for proof and tell them I only demand proof from Quran and nothing else. Every Aalim will provide you evidence from Quran itself. And this is exactly what I am talking about. Quran itself also says that there are "muhkam" and "muteshabih" ayats. Who will explain those to you ? How can you view Quran from a non-historical point of view when Quran is a book of contextual history in itself. You yourself said above people nitpick things from Quran without looking at 10 ayats before that, so you obviously understand the concept of context. Where will you take context from?

Do you really expect me to believe that (please dont take this personally) you or those guys are so knowledgeable that you can decipher Quran, which holds the key to every desease known to mankind, every ill that confounds men and every problem that may arise. "Ilm hasal karo chahey chein jana parhey" was the original concept. Not bound yourself to one hardline way of thinking and defending that to your grave.

Yes, I am confused. But I admit that I am confused. And by admitting this, atleast I am on a path to get even more knowledge and close to truth . Instead of living this bubble of " I am right and everyone is wrong" will limit your own growt.
Trying to educate ourselves so that we can prove others wronge, should not be the concept. Get all sorts of education to get closer to the truth should be. And this is not "Fitna". Asking questions is NOT FITNA. Not answering them properly and misguiding people to follow due to lack of knowledge is FITNA. If our so called real "Scholars" and people like you and I, cant decipher Quran entirley and then we try to prove our sect to be 100% correct from Quran, THAT is Fitna. What 99% of our molvis do is fitna. Lets see if anyone dares to ask questions from them and live to see the day. If you dont know the answer say so, no harm done.
I try to gain knowledge from whatever and whichever sources I can. And that is the Islam I believe in.​

and you did not get my point. Read the quran and the hadith... correct your emaan and follow the sunnah. There is NO NEED for anything else... what does that "anything else" have? sects and biddha... don't go for that, they are useless and forbidden... quran clearly forbids sects. Why would i ever go to a shia or a barelvi or a deobandi scholar? i would go to a scholar who only preaches islam and not who should have been the first or second caliph or which dead person would take my dua to Allah etc. There are many examples i can give you... people would go to "scholars" like tariq jameel, who do not deserve the name. Ask such a "scholar" to give references to the "stories" he tells, he will not be able to as they are mostly made up. Such people were thrown out of mosques at the time of the sahabah r.a as such people do not have enough knowledge to preach and the converted from them would be ignorant and won't know anything about deen. I will not go to "teachers"... This is termed as a time of fitna(read the meaning) and the scholars in this time are worst than normal people(told to us by hadith)... so i would study these sources myself so that i am good enough to understand for myself rather than ask other people's opinion. That is why in islam it is a MUST to learn the deen... you must have the knowledge to understand the wisdom behind it. The picture i posted above states exactly that. People who are still caught up in the shia sunni fiasco have shit for brains as they just listen to these teachers... WHO IS MY TEACHER? The word of ALLAH, the prophet saww and the shahabah r.a . If they teach me good enough then do i need to go to modern teacher? who can't shut up people talking about democracy as a just system? Islam is Just and Logical, it cannot contradict itself and only things like sects create the confusion. You should not read what these scholars say... go to the original source like quran and hadith, which are easy to understand actually... not hard at all. How be a "momin" who had a pure and innocent heart. No anger and hate festers in that heart. The wisdom of islam is understood by a few and if you cannot understand something then go to those few(and yes they are few and unlikely from the scholars who fight about shia and sunni sect). The definition of islam is simple... you do not need other sources... if you have the true sources. Sure you will be following some sort of school of thought, even if you do not adhere to the sect conundrum. But you are a muslim only and your life is to serve Allah only... and example is... a servant of mine told me "Mohammand aap ko baita day"... they say it in urdu "hucka bucka reh jana".. was my state... you hear about it but don't see it often. I don't like it when these sects start calling each other as "kafir" and even good sects that i think are ideologically more sound than other(salafi) have sects within themselves who call each other as kafir... this is fitna and nothing else. Sects are fitna and nothing else.. believe me. When a new comer wants to come to islam he would be confused by this crap but that is the fitna of it all, cannot be avoided... that is why in these times momin are few while muslims are many. I am not necessarily against what you said... just clearing my point of view. I don't think or care about what sects to follow. No... pointing out the wrong that sects do does not equate to believing in them... being in a sect does not make you a non muslim... it is about right or wrong and nothing else... calling yourself a muslim only and doing the basics right is what islam is. There are 3 parts of emaan which not many would know... why would anyone talk about which sect is right when they don't have the absolute basic right? the 3 parts are 1. Absolute belief in the mercy of Allah(yes those asking dead people don't know about this). 2. Eternal and absolute love for Allah. 3. Absolute fear or Allah and no one else. (people are afraid of doing bad at graves as that "baba gee" would get angry but those same people would go and cheat at their shops angering Allah)... if you develope a pure connection to Allah then everything will fall into place... ALLAH will guide you Himself to the proper path... Beleive me... belief is more impartant than any sect... you will love Allah and fear Him and then automatically you will love the Prophet saww and everything aligned with islam... it is just natural and logical...

 

[mafiadog]

and you did not get my point. Read the quran and the hadith... correct your emaan and follow the sunnah. There is NO NEED for anything else... what does that "anything else" have? sects and biddha... don't go for that, they are useless and forbidden... quran clearly forbids sects. Why would i ever go to a shia or a barelvi or a deobandi scholar? i would go to a scholar who only preaches islam and not who should have been the first or second caliph or which dead person would take my dua to Allah etc. There are many examples i can give you... people would go to "scholars" like tariq jameel, who do not deserve the name. Ask such a "scholar" to give references to the "stories" he tells, he will not be able to as they are mostly made up. Such people were thrown out of mosques at the time of the sahabah r.a as such people do not have enough knowledge to preach and the converted from them would be ignorant and won't know anything about deen. I will not go to "teachers"... This is termed as a time of fitna(read the meaning) and the scholars in this time are worst than normal people(told to us by hadith)... so i would study these sources myself so that i am good enough to understand for myself rather than ask other people's opinion. That is why in islam it is a MUST to learn the deen... you must have the knowledge to understand the wisdom behind it. The picture i posted above states exactly that. People who are still caught up in the shia sunni fiasco have shit for brains as they just listen to these teachers... WHO IS MY TEACHER? The word of ALLAH, the prophet saww and the shahabah r.a . If they teach me good enough then do i need to go to modern teacher? who can't shut up people talking about democracy as a just system? Islam is Just and Logical, it cannot contradict itself and only things like sects create the confusion. You should not read what these scholars say... go to the original source like quran and hadith, which are easy to understand actually... not hard at all. How be a "momin" who had a pure and innocent heart. No anger and hate festers in that heart. The wisdom of islam is understood by a few and if you cannot understand something then go to those few(and yes they are few and unlikely from the scholars who fight about shia and sunni sect). The definition of islam is simple... you do not need other sources... if you have the true sources. Sure you will be following some sort of school of thought, even if you do not adhere to the sect conundrum. But you are a muslim only and your life is to serve Allah only... and example is... a servant of mine told me "Mohammand aap ko baita day"... they say it in urdu "hucka bucka reh jana".. was my state... you hear about it but don't see it often. I don't like it when these sects start calling each other as "kafir" and even good sects that i think are ideologically more sound than other(salafi) have sects within themselves who call each other as kafir... this is fitna and nothing else. Sects are fitna and nothing else.. believe me. When a new comer wants to come to islam he would be confused by this crap but that is the fitna of it all, cannot be avoided... that is why in these times momin are few while muslims are many. I am not necessarily against what you said... just clearing my point of view. I don't think or care about what sects to follow. No... pointing out the wrong that sects do does not equate to believing in them... being in a sect does not make you a non muslim... it is about right or wrong and nothing else... calling yourself a muslim only and doing the basics right is what islam is. There are 3 parts of emaan which not many would know... why would anyone talk about which sect is right when they don't have the absolute basic right? the 3 parts are 1. Absolute belief in the mercy of Allah(yes those asking dead people don't know about this). 2. Eternal and absolute love for Allah. 3. Absolute fear or Allah and no one else. (people are afraid of doing bad at graves as that "baba gee" would get angry but those same people would go and cheat at their shops angering Allah)... if you develope a pure connection to Allah then everything will fall into place... ALLAH will guide you Himself to the proper path... Beleive me... belief is more impartant than any sect... you will love Allah and fear Him and then automatically you will love the Prophet saww and everything aligned with islam... it is just natural and logical...

Bhai hardly 2% of Muslims follow your salafic view. Let's not malign or talk about sects . there is one member here who said I Belong to a sect where if named then pemra bans it. My friend , I signed a legal paper that said that sect isn't Muslim so its not even a 'sect'. This paper is signed to become a legal Pakistan citizen.

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[Leon]

Because those people have grown past this phase that we are in. They don't take their holy book as the final word in all matters. They have realized that times have changed and that something that was written over 2000 years ago can't be applied in this day and age without change.

You must be talking about Atheists then? There are still a lot more Christians than us in the whole world. Their holy book is almost similar to ours. I can quote you verses from the Bible that have orders of killing the people who go astray. Why is it that only Muslims end up being the "terrorists"?

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[ASKnASK]

You cannot expect to understand high school level science without having learnt the basics of science in lower classes. Similar is the case with Quran. You must educate yourself enough so the Quran actually does look as plain as it was intended.

East or west, Islam is the best.

 

[Leon]

Yeah the Arabs back in the day were very learned. That's why they started following this new religion being taught to them by the islamic prophet.

I don't think there's any 'learning' necessary to understand something like 'x, y and z can't be your friends because they disagree with what's in this this new book'. It's plain hate-mongering. Same goes for the verdict on gay men, and a 100 other things. In one place it will tell you that killing a human being is the same as killing the whole of mankind, and in another place it encourages you to wage war against people.

And please use better analogies. Science is based on research and facts. It calls a theory that for a reason. It didn't come out of the blue and claimed to be the final word.

What war? Quran has literally ordered not to do wrong to the Non-Muslims who haven't done you wrong, killed your people, or thrown you out of your homes. There is a direct verse about that.

Also:

And We have not sent you but as a mercy to all the worlds." (Quran 21:107)

"There is no compulsion in religion…" (Quran 2:256)

"Beware! *Whoever is cruel and hard on a non-Muslim minority, curtails their rights, burdens them with more than they can bear, or takes anything from them against their free will; I*(Prophet Muhammad)*will complain against the person on the Day of Judgment." (Abu Dawud)

"And dispute you not with the People of the Scripture, except in the best way, unless it be with those who do wrong, but say, ‘We believe in the revelation which has come down to us and in that which came down to you; our God and your God is One; and it is to Him we submit (in Islam).’" (Quran 21:46)

Lastly,

"Do not revile those whom they call upon besides God, lest they revile God out of spite in their ignorance.* Thus, We have made alluring to each people its own doings.* In the end will they return to their Lord and He shall then tell them the truth of what they did." (Quran 6:108)


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[mafiadog]

Yeah the Arabs back in the day were very learned. That's why they started following this new religion being taught to them by the islamic prophet.

I don't think there's any 'learning' necessary to understand something like 'x, y and z can't be your friends because they disagree with what's in this this new book'. It's plain hate-mongering. Same goes for the verdict on gay men, and a 100 other things. In one place it will tell you that killing a human being is the same as killing the whole of mankind, and in another place it encourages you to wage war against people.

And please use better analogies. Science is based on research and facts. It calls a theory that for a reason. It didn't come out of the blue and claimed to be the final word.

Exactly. You don't need to be educated enough to understand Qur'an. Its supposed to be universal not for only the educated. Thus Arabs were not all literate but some were.

Are you suggesting only illiterate follow religion ? Scientology I think have the most educated ones ? There might be elite cults we don't know of too amongst the educated class. So failing to understand your analogy ? A billion are a fool ?

I know you're referring to him but science and religion are two separate entities. Science doesn't refute Islam or maybe even if it does , our religious views are above science. So if science claims tomorrow that for a fact there is no god , I wouldn't give a shit so would not the 1 billion others. Science is debatable our issue of religion is the assumed absolute truth. We worship one God without any conditions. Call us fool , so did Abu jahl , he was the most learned man of the world at that time. We were 100s then now we are a billion. Fools we all then , we didn't come on earth for idle discussions of who is god. To us religion is complete the final and absolute truth.

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[Leon]

Oh btw you said Quran isnt valid anymore right? I just used it to quote here in 2k16, So..

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[NaNoW]

and you did not get my point. Read the quran and the hadith... correct your emaan and follow the sunnah. .

Merey Bhai ek "Sunnah", ek "Hadith" nahi hai koi. Yehi tu masla hai.
Also why are you discussing sects. Read my initial posts. I am completely against sects. The problem is that each sects says that they are not a sect, but instead the "right and guided ones" and all others are "misguided". And Each and everyone of them can prove this using Only Quran. And I have a problem with those who try to prove any of this like a certainty. Quran is a historically contextual book. How can any historically contextual text be relevant without reference material from which to drive context from? Slavery is mentioned multiple times in Quran, and without proper referencing and context from other sources, you would be "owning" other human beings like property.

Let me give you a very simple example. If I handover Quran alone as a book to a person who hasn't heard of Holy phophet(pbuh), Islam, Muslim, Sharia, Battles, etc etc...
You think he can understand and drive what that text is implicitly and explicitly saying or referring to?? Be honest with yourself.

 

[criticalerror]

Yeah the Arabs back in the day were very learned. That's why they started following this new religion being taught to them by the islamic prophet.

I don't think there's any 'learning' necessary to understand something like 'x, y and z can't be your friends because they disagree with what's in this this new book'. It's plain hate-mongering. Same goes for the verdict on gay men, and a 100 other things. In one place it will tell you that killing a human being is the same as killing the whole of mankind, and in another place it encourages you to wage war against people.

And please use better analogies. Science is based on research and facts. It calls a theory that for a reason. It didn't come out of the blue and claimed to be the final word.

Did i say Arabs were learned before Islam? No i didn't. What i did say was the Quran came to guide these very people from that said ignorance.Post-Islamic boom of education is a topic you can research yourself. Muslims were proponents of science when Europe was in the dark ages(clichéd but true).
Unfortunately we have stumbled into the same dark ages due to being distanced from our religion, which enjoins education and critical thinking.

You summarize those 100 issues into one sentence because all those issues have a proper reason in Islam and you don't have a rebuttal for it. E.g Homosexuality is NOT ok, not even in the anatomical sense. It is banned in every major religion, not just islam. The rest of the books were corrupted later on when man saw fit. The Quran, whose defense from corruption Allah himself has assumed, is still available in it's original form for all to see.
As for x,y and z not being your friends, i dont know what you are referring to. If it is the verse of the Quran you are referring to then that has sound basis. You may do your research on it. I am not defending any Mullah or scholar and neither am i responsible for the said Mullahs cry to kill people. Islam has nothing to do with people using it for their own gain and ignorant people following them.

My analogy flew by you because you grabbed the wrong idea from it.. The analogy was to show you how you can't learn a higher concept without having basic knowledge about the concept. Similar is the case with the Quran. This is besides the fact that the majority of the Quran is plain and simple. You just like to pick a few verses which reuqire context so that you may hide behind those and ignore the simpler aspects of the Quran. Also, the Quran didn't come out of the blue. It was revealed in 23 years which i would hardly refer to as "coming out of the blue". Had you the basic concepts of Islam you would not have made such a statement. Hence my argument for you to learn basics before taking on more challenging concepts.

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it."

-ARISTOTLE


You are not even ready to entertain the concept that Islam is a peaceful religion so what is the use of arguing?

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[Benighted]

I have been saying this from the very beginning, there are contradictions in your statements.

You mistake me again, killerdon. I only refuse to use Quran and Hadith as a source of history (other than Islamic history) or science, because it is not a textbook. But the best way to learn about the Prophet and his religion is, quite obviously, nothing but the Islamic scripture itself. How is this a contradiction?

If I can find morally questionable things about your religion from YOUR OWN holy books, isn't that the strongest piece of evidence I can produce?

You can disagree with me, but please do not sabotage my arguments by falsely claiming contradictions.


@criticalerror:

I really don't understand your concept of insult. If a man is a murderer, the only way for me communicate what he really is is to call him what he is: a murderer. If you think that's an insult, then sure. I can't sugarcoat my words without losing meaning. And it's not like I am calling your Prophet/religion bad names or hurling abuses. I am only using regular adjectives simply to describe my views of them.

You have all the right to insult my views. I promise I won't pressure the mods to delete your posts for that. Respect, in the context of debate, does not mean respect for all the ideas that are in contention. It only means respect for all the parties involved (and I guess it's clear who has been more personally respectful in the thread). If I was arguing in favor of Nazism here, and you thought Nazism is a vile ideology, would you respect it? When you are critical of something that you think is BAD, you can't expect to respect it. It is psychologically impossible for anyone to respect something that they believe is evil. No belief system has the right to be respected. Not mine and not yours.

How Islam promotes terrorism? Read your holy text. It's all in there.

And I am not just arguing terrorism here. I am talking violence done for Islam in general. And blasphemy has been responsible for quite a lot of that.

When religious leaders shower praises upon murderers, condone killings done for Islam, refuse to condemn any such acts, then insurgency increases. Ulemas carry a massive influence in our society. People respect them. They listen to them. If they really were so appalled by the mess Islamic terrorism has been creating, they would have been more vocal in their protests of it. But they are not. They are not doing anything to discourage violence, leading to increasing militancy. And why are they not doing it? Because they know Islam endorses it.

You want me to quote how exactly Islam does that, but that is a needless risk that I am not willing to take. Because even if I do that, it's futile. You are already decided on your faith. You will perform all manner of mental gymnastics, shifting through ambiguities and contexts until you found one that suited your favorite interpretation. The fact that your holy books allow so much wriggle-room for intellectual dishonesty is why even people far smarter than me will be hard-pressed to prove anything that you do not already want to believe.

And thus, we have reached an impasse. Please don't try to drag our stupid bickering any longer. It's not adding anything of value here. There is nothing more for me to say regarding your objections. If you think I have failed to make any valid points, by all means.

 

[Benighted]

But should we not strive for peace ? Yes we should but to Islam the only means to peace is if all either become Muslims or pay jizya for protection.

[MENTION=26485]criticalerror[/MENTION]:

Sorry to start this again, but I thought you might like to read the above quoted sentences. It doesn't come from someone stupid, ignorant and illogical like me. Comes from a friend of yours. And he is right, you know. That's what Islam really wants. Still think that does nothing to promote terrorism?

 

[criticalerror]

You mistake me again, killerdon. I only refuse to use Quran and Hadith as a source of history (other than Islamic history) or science, because it is not a textbook. But the best way to learn about the Prophet and his religion is, quite obviously, nothing but the Islamic scripture itself. How is this a contradiction?

If I can find morally questionable things about your religion from YOUR OWN holy books, isn't that the strongest piece of evidence I can produce?

You can disagree with me, but please do not sabotage my arguments by falsely claiming contradictions.


@criticalerror:

I really don't understand your concept of insult. If a man is a murderer, the only way for me communicate what he really is is to call him what he is: a murderer. If you think that's an insult, then sure. I can't sugarcoat my words without losing meaning. And it's not like I am calling your Prophet/religion bad names or hurling abuses. I am only using regular adjectives simply to describe my views of them.

You have all the right to insult my views. I promise I won't pressure the mods to delete your posts for that. Respect, in the context of debate, does not mean respect for all the ideas that are in contention. It only means respect for all the parties involved (and I guess it's clear who has been more personally respectful in the thread). If I was arguing in favor of Nazism here, and you thought Nazism is a vile ideology, would you respect it? When you are critical of something that you think is BAD, you can't expect to respect it. It is psychologically impossible for anyone to respect something that they believe is evil. No belief system has the right to be respected. Not mine and not yours.

How Islam promotes terrorism? Read your holy text. It's all in there.

And I am not just arguing terrorism here. I am talking violence done for Islam in general. And blasphemy has been responsible for quite a lot of that.

When religious leaders shower praises upon murderers, condone killings done for Islam, refuse to condemn any such acts, then insurgency increases. Ulemas carry a massive influence in our society. People respect them. They listen to them. If they really were so appalled by the mess Islamic terrorism has been creating, they would have been more vocal in their protests of it. But they are not. They are not doing anything to discourage violence, leading to increasing militancy. And why are they not doing it? Because they know Islam endorses it.

You want me to quote how exactly Islam does that, but that is a needless risk that I am not willing to take. Because even if I do that, it's futile. You are already decided on your faith. You will perform all manner of mental gymnastics, shifting through ambiguities and contexts until you found one that suited your favorite interpretation. The fact that your holy books allow so much wriggle-room for intellectual dishonesty is why even people far smarter than me will be hard-pressed to prove anything that you do not already want to believe.

And thus, we have reached an impasse. Please don't try to drag our stupid bickering any longer. It's not adding anything of value here. There is nothing more for me to say regarding your objections. If you think I have failed to make any valid points, by all means.

Again, i would ask as to what made you arrive at your conclusion that Islam has promoted hatred and violence. You need not take a risk. You can atleast argue in favor of your theory. All you are doing is presenting your theory and expecting me to accept it without debate. The same that you accuse me of.
As for religious leaders praising the killers, i have already cleared that up. You cannot hold a concept responsible for its followers twisting it. That is neither logical neither a sound analysis.

I have no wish to insult. Insult is what fools use when they don't have anything better to say. You have not provided me anything to do mental gymnastics on. You are to this time still passing your opinion. So no thinking or mental effort is required by me. You say you cannot accept and debate anything you see as BAD. I am saying the same thing. It is you who THINKS islam is bad, so it is your opinion, not hard facts as you claim. You can definitely share it as your opinion but not as a sound analysis. I for one would always be ready to debate on whatever concept you chose. You even said the Prophet(PBUH) was not of as high a character as muslims claim. I entertained your theory but you provided no argument to back it up. So it stood as a false claim.

I have read my holy books and all the assorted criticisms as well. Had i not read them i would ve been less accomodating and more insulting. I have yet to find anything remotely condoning killing of innocents. The very basis of our discussion.

I for one did not view this as stupid bickering. You were the one to ask for a mature debate. That's what it is. Then you backed out when i counter-questioned your thesis.You wish to not take it any further, that's fine by me as well.

[MENTION=26485]criticalerror[/MENTION]:

Sorry to start this again, but I thought you might like to read the above quoted sentences. It doesn't come from someone stupid, ignorant and illogical like me. Comes from a friend of yours. And he is right, you know. That's what Islam really wants. Still think that does nothing to promote terrorism?

I fail to see how you can connect an opinion of a fellow PG member as what islam wants? It is his interpretation. Mine maybe different?

Islam enforced this jizya in an Islamic system, which when implemented properly, provides complete protection to religious minorities. They will not be persecuted, they will be free to practice their religion, they will not be subjected to violence. During the earlier caliphates this was implemented properly and provided protection to minorities of that time.Also this jizya was not required of poor people, women and children. Islam enjoins that after payment of jizya, it is the responsibility of the government to ensure complete protection for the said minorities.
Now if current governments can't implement it properly is it the fault of Islam or the failure of it's followers.?

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