Are we defending Islam?

[Benighted]

This is a much needed thread. I appreciate [MENTION=4160]Mephisto[/MENTION] for doing this.

The problem, as I see it, is that we ARE defending Islam and continue to do so, allowing its cancer to spread unabated. And the problem hardly stops with ISIS. Look at Taliban. Look at Mumtaz Qadri. And most importantly, look at us. The terrorist mentality has become a cultural element for us. The average Pakistani Joe is not innocent of it. This is not to say that he is a terrorist. But the painful truth is that he is indifferent to extremist violence. Not only does he refuse to condemn these acts, he actually condones them. The only thing that separates him from the terrorists is that, the terrorists have the courage to act on their insanity, while he doesn't.

Modern Islam does not espouse materialism, as many people seem to think. Neither does it incline toward spirituality. Quite on the contrary, modern Islam is fervently immaterialistic. And by that I mean that the followers of this version of Islam (and they are present in every sect), have as their strongest article of faith the belief that, the best way to heaven is not a righteous life, it's murder and violence. And they hope to launch its favorite sect to heaven by the shockwave of their bombs set off to destroy this world, infested by the "others". This is the way to heaven these days. Violence, death and destruction are the highest virtues in today's Islam, and the foremost duty of the good Muslim. Thus, you have Mumtaz Qadri killing for sawaab,and millions hailing him as the greatest hero there ever was. He has millions of sympathizers <---- Case in point: Terrorist mentality of the average person.

Then we have multiple Islamic militant groups, of which Taliban is one, who actually enjoy similar support like Qadri did, for their acts of mindless terrorism (read kindness). While many of these people will never actually join a terrorist group, they nonetheless do not mind their activities at all. In my opinion, the real cause for alarm is not these raving murderers, but the huge number of sympathizers they have. And believe me, they are a lot.

In view of all this, Islamophobia is not entirely unwarranted. Any person in their right mind is entirely justified for fearing muslims. We have been creating hell lately.

Moderate Muslims deserve a lot of blame for this. Although they have their humanity intact, they lack the courage to start re-examining their faith, preventing themselves from addressing the root of this menace which, at this point, everyone should start to realize, is Islam itself. Please try to re-evaluate what you think Islam is. From Islamic perspective, the fundamentalist factions aren't the ones who are misguided. The only misguided ones are the moderates who continue to pretend that Islam is a tolerant, peaceful, progressive religion. It is not. Please stop lying to yourselves. Stop fooling yourselves. It has been long enough. The world is suffering for our denial.

 

[Mephisto]

This is a much needed thread. I appreciate @Mephisto for doing this.

The problem, as I see it, is that we ARE defending Islam and continue to do so, allowing its cancer to spread unabated. And the problem hardly stops with ISIS. Look at Taliban. Look at Mumtaz Qadri. And most importantly, look at us. The terrorist mentality has become a cultural element for us. The average Pakistani Joe is not innocent of it. This is not to say that he is a terrorist. But the painful truth is that he is indifferent to extremist violence. Not only does he refuse to condemn these acts, he actually condones them. The only thing that separates him from the terrorists is that, the terrorists have the courage to act on their insanity, while he doesn't.

Modern Islam does not espouse materialism, as many people seem to think. Neither does it incline toward spirituality. Quite on the contrary, modern Islam is fervently immaterialistic. And by that I mean that the followers of this version of Islam (and they are present in every sect), have as their strongest article of faith the belief that, the best way to heaven is not a righteous life, it's murder and violence. And they hope to launch its favorite sect to heaven by the shockwave of their bombs set off to destroy this world, infested by the "others". This is the way to heaven these days. Violence, death and destruction are the highest virtues in today's Islam, and the foremost duty of the good Muslim. Thus, you have Mumtaz Qadri killing for sawaab,and millions hailing him as the greatest hero there ever was. He has millions of sympathizers <---- Case in point: Terrorist mentality of the average person.

Then we have multiple Islamic militant groups, of which Taliban is one, who actually enjoy similar support like Qadri did, for their acts of mindless terrorism (read kindness). While many of these people will never actually join a terrorist group, they nonetheless do not mind their activities at all. In my opinion, the real cause for alarm is not these raving murderers, but the huge number of sympathizers they have. And believe me, they are a lot.

In view of all this, Islamophobia is not entirely unwarranted. Any person in their right mind is entirely justified for fearing muslims. We have been creating hell lately.

Moderate Muslims deserve a lot of blame for this. Although they have their humanity intact, they lack the courage to start re-examining their faith, preventing themselves from addressing the root of this menace which, at this point, everyone should start to realize, is Islam itself. Please try to re-evaluate what you think Islam is. From Islamic perspective, the fundamentalist factions aren't the ones who are misguided. The only misguided ones are the moderates who continue to pretend that Islam is a tolerant, peaceful, progressive religion. It is not. Please stop lying to yourselves. Stop fooling yourselves. It has been long enough. The world is suffering for our denial.

Wow you're calling for a quick closure of this thread. lol

I don't blame the religion because if this was true, we'd have a history of Islam not accounting for anything but murder and kill. However, on the contrary Islam gave a lot of knowledge back to this world when it was in its prime time. We have fanatics [had them back then too], who take one thing out of proportion and apply it on everything. These people do not understand Islam, they are the misguided ones. The clerics who do not understand a single word in the scripture would preach whatever they wish to the illiterate folks. These clerics are only sitting there so they can make some money, it's a business to them. The more illiterate you are, the higher the chance you'll end up becoming a fanatic.

Interesting story, when I was in Philippines I was approached by this girl who asked me if Muslims are allowed to read Quraan? Because she claimed that her Muslim neighbor told her that they are not allowed to read anything and only the imam would read it to them. Can you imagine how twisted these clerics are? I cleared up her misconception but it made me wonder how twisted Islam has become for these folks.

 

[mafiadog]

We are a warring nation , sorry to blow everyone's bubble. Ours is the mission of tauheed , despite the sugar coatings on top.

Want to challenge me !?? , Persia , Byzantine and so on. None attacked you .

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[Benighted]

Wow you're calling for a quick closure of this thread. lol
.

Haha I really hope this isn't closed and we can have a mature discussion here. I hope people can curb their sentiments for a bit.

I don't blame the religion because if this was true, we'd have a history of Islam not accounting for anything but murder and kill. I don't blame the religion because if this was true, we'd have a history of Islam not accounting for anything but murder and kill. However, on the contrary Islam gave a lot of knowledge back to this world when it was in its prime time. We have fanatics [had them back then too], who take one thing out of proportion and apply it on everything

I do not deny that there is good stuff in the Quran as well. But that's not the whole story. There is another side to Islam which the decent believers would rather not talk about, and I totally understand that, from a psychological standpoint, why that is difficult to do. The roots of religious belief extend deep into the human mind. Even the most open-minded person is likely to succumb to his cognitive biases in favor of his faith.

At the same time, I wish that were not so. Because I know there are a lot of reasonable, intelligent people among these believers like yourself, who are compelled to hold themselves back from a fair criticism of faith due to their respect for it.

Islamic history has gone through different phases. It's not all murder and kill, you are correct. But throughout history, each age has brought out a different aspect of Islam more strongly than others. In earlier days, it was more about politics and building empires and although it wasn't completely free of bloodshed even then, but stable politics necessarily requires good peace-keeping policies as well.

In today's age, with entirely different circumstances, Islam is about hate and xenophobia more than anything else. There are probably deeper sociological forces that bring about these changes, and what these exactly are, I do not venture to guess. But the fact remains: Extremist roots begin from Islam itself.

These people do not understand Islam, they are the misguided ones. The clerics who do not understand a single word in the scripture would preach whatever they wish to the illiterate folks. These clerics are only sitting there so they can make some money, it's a business to them. The more illiterate you are, the higher the chance you'll end up becoming a fanatic.

This isn't entirely true. Illiterate clerics and madrassah brainwashing are not the only force behind the rise of Islamic extremism. There are literate, popular "scholars" who preach a rigid, divisive and hateful version of Islam. There are people in my immediate family even, who are members of some tanzeem and I have seen sane, broad-minded people turned into bigoted zealots by them. Trust me, they are not illiterate. And that is exactly what I am worried about. I don't care about the illiterates. The most revealing thing concerning Islam's reality, is the kind of preaching the "educated" ones are doing. Can you name a single Mufti/maulvi/scholar/whatever who condemned Mumtaz Qadri? Wait, forget condemnation. There's not a single one who DIDN'T pay his respects to Qadri. Nor one who speaks out against the bombings of non-Muslims in Western countries. They don't do it because they don't find anything wrong about it. And they know their scriptures well, I assure you.

The thing with Islam is that it is not content with simple worship and achieving spiritual fulfillment. It wants to turn the hearts of believers away from this world, and at the same time, can't help invading the everyday life of the world, enforcing its rule upon everyone. And that paves the way for this fanaticism we are witnessing.

 

[Leon]

So we are going to blame Islam rather than the people who take it in the wrong way and actually use it to create chaos among people?


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[Jshak]

We are good

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[Mephisto]

@Benighted

I belong to a specific sect that if you spoke about their rights on national television PEMRA will ban you outright. The video above is from the guy of the same sect [I hope that is enough to give you a hint of which sect I'm talking about ]. Clerics of this sect clearly and outright denounced what Qadri did. Murder has no place in Islam.

So I don't believe the religion is wrong. The hadeeth about stoning etc are from the time of the prophet, where there was no government of such sort. Now the times have changed and these hadeeths are up for interpretation. We shouldn't take everything by word in Islam. If we do so, we'll end up back in 600AD. Islam has a pacifist way of life [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacifism_in_Islam], we can promote this.

The problem is, as you and most people pointed out, that Islam has the ability to be corrupted to be used for violence. That's where we need literate people to come in. And when I say literate, I don't mean in sense holding of PhD in science etc but also religious literate people.

This is the tough part, and these pacifist muslims are low in numbers. However they are growing day by day as they see how violent Daesh and other terrorist organizations have become. They are starting to realize their Muslim clerics are not all that. It's tough for them to break away from this chain but some are starting to do so. That's why I've said that we need to voice up against these people. We need to break away form these clerics who can rally up a storm on Qadri but would barely show up on Edhi's funeral.

@Jshak

It's a good sign, the forum is becoming a little more mature. I'm still choosing my words wisely when talking to folks here

 

[Benighted]

So we are going to blame Islam rather than the people who take it in the wrong way and actually use it to create chaos among people?


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Yes, I think it is fair that Islam should share part of the blame. When you think about it, it doesn't even matter whether the "real" Islam is peaceful or hateful. Let's just deal with evident facts, and be a little objectively analytical about this:

There is a very simple reason why words like "Muslim terrorist" exist but not "Christian terrorist" or "Buddhist terrorist" or "Shinto terrorist". Take out all acts of terrorism in the last 10 years, and compare those committed by Muslims with those committed by non-Muslims. You will see a certain pattern in all cases of Islamic terrorism that is absent in perpetrators of non-Islamic faith. A non-Muslim terrorist, most of the time, is simply a terrorist who happens to belong to a particular faith. But a Muslim terrorist is almost always a terrorist BECAUSE of his faith, not in spite of it. There is a direct causal link here. A terrorist who is a Christian, for example, most of the time does not use his faith as a motive for killing. He doesn't shout "FOR JESUS" before opening fire. But Muslim terrorists almost always dedicate their crime to the glory of Islam and the Prophet and Allah and invariably shout "Allah-o-Akbar" before triggering their guns/bombs. Considering this, Islamophobia is quite valid. When Islam is blamed in general for the crimes of a few Muslim terrorists, but they don't do the same for the crimes of non-Muslim terrorists, it isn't prejudice. Islamophobia has strong basis in facts.

Now, whether this terrorism is simply a result of misinterpretation is totally irrelevant. Let's forget the matter of interpretation altogether. We're dealing with facts, right? Well, the fact of the matter is, Islam, either intentionally or unintentionally, IS promoting and inspiring murder and violence and in this way, is deserving of blame. Why is no other popular religion misinterpreted as often and as violently as Islam?

@Mephisto:

I understand where you're coming from. You agree, that Islam CAN be used for violence. And I think you will also agree that the only way Islam and the world can survive together, is by reforming Islam. In its current form, it will only continue to increase militancy at this point.

Unfortunately, I don't think Islam can be reformed for exactly the reason, as you have pointed out, that the pacifists are extremely low in numbers compared to the fundamentalists. I wish it could be done, I really do. But we have to be pragmatic about this, and honestly, I don't think the pacifists will ever be able to win. All they can do, is wait silently and hope that one day, extremism will start to decline and then the pacifists can seize the opportunity to preach an agreeable, tolerant version of Islam. But let's not kid ourselves. That's never going to happen. This extremism is here to stay. The only way to defeat it, is by getting rid of the meaningless distinction between "good Islam" and "bad Islam". This only creates confusion and allows fanatics to take cover behind the confusion thus formed, leaving non-Muslims who have no idea who the real enemy is puzzled. And we need their help (Western non-Muslims) because we are both victims. The world needs to know where the root of this evil begins from. We are only making matters worse by protecting Islam. It is a ticking bomb that needs to be dismantled.

 

[criticalerror]

To answer the OP, I also agree that violence is not condemned by Islamic scholars in the strongest possible terms. That is a failure on the part of Muslims as whole.
But to make a jump from this to Islam being a problem is misguided at best. The reason for this is our knowledge of Islam is infantile at best. If you read the Quran, nowhere in it does it condone the killing of innocents. On the contrary this verse is self explanatory on Islam's stance

Whoever kills a person [unjustly]…it is as though he has killed all mankind. And whoever saves a life, it is as though he had saved all mankind.” (Qur’an, 5:32)

I am yet to read evidence/logic on how this is a failing of Islam as a religion. Extremism is not condoned either by Islam, but people might still take an extremist view of Islam. Still not a fault of Islam. A person can twist the religion according to his/her needs. You can't subsequently blame religion for that person's views.
As for it being fare to drag Islam into this, i would urge everyone to first develop an understanding of Islam. Only then are you able to criticize analytically the subject matter. E.g i can't debunk theories of Physics if i don't have even basic knowledge of physics. If you had the basic knowledge of Islam, such a thread would be wholly unnecessary.






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[killerdons]

[MENTION=12458]Benighted[/MENTION]

Your logic is flawed, thus making most of your arguments invalid. Say for example: Zaid makes a car, thieves use it. Is Zaid to blame? Everything in this world can be used for good and bad, every religion, every material thing. A gun can be used to kill and defend. A nuclear bomb can act as a deterrent and to kill millions, a butter knife can be used to spread butter and to slit a throat. Good Muslims while being in majority, are not given attention in media as bad ones. Which makes up an interesting news? Terrorists killing someone or the late Muslim social worker Abdul Sattar Eidi giving shelter to millions of home less across Pakistan?

Non-Muslims are investing their time and money on brain washing young, naive Muslims children's and illiterate men. My uncle told me the following incident when he was posted in Wazirstan.

During one of the fire fights, they injured one of the terrorists, a young 16 year old boy. Upon inquiring, the boy revealed that he was misled to believe that he was fighting against enemies of Islam. Later they found out that 3 clerics in the nearby mosques, who were killed, were non-Muslim Indians.

There is only one and right version of Islam. Everything mentioned in the Quran is good. The followers of Islam need to be content with it, not the other way around.

What's the origin of Taliban? An organization made for the sole purpose of defeating Soviet Union for the sake of U.S. that back fired. Muslims can't use the same tactics as non-Muslims, else it will be pretty simple to disguise someone as a priest and blow stuff up, in the name of Jesus. Start brain washing young Christians and Jews to do the same. Both the old and new testaments can be used to brainwash them, and in a few years, you will start hearing Jewish terrorist, Christian terrorist. Islam has forbidden suicide, for whatever reason it maybe, end of story. Muslims scholars have spoken openly against it and were targeted for this sole reason. An example being that of the late Scholar Sarfraz Naeemi Sahab.

The only solution to defend Islam is to invest heavily on two things. Education and Defense. Make one of the Islamic nation an education hub, like it used to be.

 

[Benighted]

@Benighted

Your logic is flawed, thus making most of your arguments invalid. Say for example: Zaid makes a car, thieves use it. Is Zaid to blame? Everything in this world can be used for good and bad, every religion, every material thing. A gun can be used to kill and defend. A nuclear bomb can act as a deterrent and to kill millions, a butter knife can be used to spread butter and to slit a throat.

The error is entirely yours, dear sir. You equate technology to ideology. Cars can be used for both good and bad purposes, but not an ideology like Islam. What has Islam brought to this world? You have an ideology that has contributed ZERO to society, and has only damaged it immensely. Your examples are valid only when talking about things of utility, the usage of which depends on the user. They are not valid when talking about something manufactured primarily to do more harm and not a single good that could not be done without it anyway. Such a thing has a utility that is non-existent. A poisonous tree spreading decay all over the ground can not be allowed to stand. It brings nothing good.

Good Muslims while being in majority, are not given attention in media as bad ones. Which makes up an interesting news? Terrorists killing someone or the late Muslim social worker Abdul Sattar Eidi giving shelter to millions of home less across Pakistan?

Remember when the media refused to show Qadri's funeral? Or was he one of the good Muslims in your book?

There is only one and right version of Islam. Everything mentioned in the Quran is good. The followers of Islam need to be content with it, not the other way around.

Well you have an extremely dangerous definition of good. Your conclusion is also your assumption. No possible arguments will be of any use here.

Muslims can't use the same tactics as non-Muslims, else it will be pretty simple to disguise someone as a priest and blow stuff up, in the name of Jesus. Start brain washing young Christians and Jews to do the same. Both the old and new testaments can be used to brainwash them, and in a few years, you will start hearing Jewish terrorist, Christian terrorist.

I agree and I am glad you mentioned this, as it only strengthens my point. The Bible has enough gunpowder in its pages to build an army with it. But that doesn't seem to be happening. Do you know why? Because the only ones capable of doing that are the ignorant nutjobs. The thinking, educated lot will never do it.

Here, unfortunately, brainwashing is not the sole driving force behind Islamic extremism. Islamic scholars, educated in their faith, do not shy away from paying their respects to murderers dedicated to Allah. That's where Islam and other religions start to diverge. And that's the most alarming fact concerning the Islamic world.

 

[criticalerror]

Cherry-picking pretty verses from the Quran is not going to help. Don't ignore the nasty stuff. Also, Quran isn't all there is to Islam. There's the life of our beloved Prophet as well. I won't go into detail about that because I might be deemed wajib-ul-qatal by this peaceful religion and your scholars who have devoted their lives to the study of Islam (so they're not Islamically misguided) will be happy to issue that fatwa. But he wasn't exactly the most virtuous person that ever lived.

I atleast gave a reference of which there are many. But you ve no interest in them so it would be wasted on you . Your monologue is devoid of anything but an opinion formed without the knowledge of Islam and i dont mean knowledge as in someone does a critique of Islam and you form your opinion on the basis of that. You ve yet to produce a shred of evidence on how Islam has promoted militancy yet you portray your opinion as a sound analysis. It is not. You won't go into the discussion because you have nothing to backup your claims. And there are many extremist "scholars" who are equally misguided because of the lack of education. As for the virtue of the Prophet, you may read many a western Non-Muslim scripture that will praise His(PBUH) character as well as the reverse. You can choose to believe what you will . Even in worldy constitutions, insulting people of importance carried the death penalty e.g Insulting the royal family of Thailand carried a maximum of a death penalty at one time. The law of Lèse-majesté ..So no, this isn't an issue with religion. It was a norm in many societies. The death penalty is only for beleivers as there is even a reference of a non believer insulting the Prophet(PBUH) and he told his companions to spare him.
[MENTION=2126]Jshak[/MENTION]
Please keep in check so no insult of Islam is done in this thread. Insulting is NOT mature discussion.

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[killerdons]

The error is entirely yours, dear sir. You equate technology to ideology. Cars can be used for both good and bad purposes, but not an ideology like Islam. What has Islam brought to this world? You have an ideology that has contributed ZERO to society, and has only damaged it immensely. Your examples are valid only when talking about things of utility, the usage of which depends on the user. They are not valid when talking about something manufactured primarily to do more harm and not a single good that could not be done without it anyway. Such a thing has a utility that is non-existent. A poisonous tree spreading decay all over the ground can not be allowed to stand. It brings nothing good.

An ideology when interpreted improperly can be used for bad, can it not? Contribution of Islam to society has been well documented by both Muslims and non-Muslims, therefore doesn't require much clarification. The state of non-Muslims before Islam is well known, burying girls, raping women, incest, war on petty issues that lasted through generations etc. Yet they were transformed in to one of the best societies of that time thanks to Islam.

Here, unfortunately, brainwashing is not the sole driving force behind Islamic extremism. Islamic scholars, educated in their faith, do not shy away from paying their respects to murderers dedicated to Allah. That's where Islam and other religions start to diverge. And that's the most alarming fact concerning the Islamic world.

Who are these scholars that you repeatedly keep mentioning about? What's there authenticity? We live in a society where just keeping a beard, promotes you to Malwi status. Do we not research thoroughly before joining a university? Do we not research thoroughly while purchasing a mundane item? Then why do we not inquire about the authenticity of the cleric of a mosque? Is he even qualified? Did he even study Islam? Is he there just to earn money the easy way? That right there is the problem. When you go for a job interview, you are analyzed by professionals. Meanwhile, a committee of guys, who are incapable, are handed over the task to pick a cleric for the mosque.

 

[Jshak]

Mature discussion is healthy

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[Benighted]

@criticalerror:

You have to call evil an evil. How fragile does your belief have to be to feel insulted and threatened by calling something for what it is?

I need to produce evidence that Islam is promoting militancy? Man, this state of denial is extraordinary. For the last 20 years, Islam's only claim to fame is terrorism. There is nothing more I can say if the deaths of thousands is not solid enough evidence for you.

Very immature of you trying to lure me debating verses and the Prophet's character. Do you want to see this thread locked and me hanged? Even if we lived in a tolerant enough society where I could do that without fearing for my safety, it would be no use as I am well familiar with the good old argumentative stratagem employed by Muslim apologists of building a maze of interpretations until both parties forgot what they were arguing in the first place. One of the many benefits of a vague dogma. If Quran was a book of facts, it wouldn't be so resolutely vague. Facts are precise. Authoritarian doctrine isn't.

It's so convenient to automatically assume that if a scholar is extremist, he must necessarily be misguided. Don't pretend you are arguing honestly when you are just going assume whatever you wish to belief without bothering to see if it even checks out against reality.

Non-muslim authors praising the Prophet? That may be enough to satisfy your already preconceived beliefs, but an author's praise proves nothing. It doesn't take a degree in psychology to be able to judge a man's character for his actions. I choose to believe what is real.

Death penalty for insulting was a norm, so it's okay for the greatest person ever born to follow suit? Impeccable logic. Shouldn't he have replaced backward laws and practices with something better?

You conveniently mention the time when the Prophet spared a man for insulting him, but what about the times when he didn't? The Jewish poets he ordered to kill because they ridiculed him? Read about it.

I see people already becoming aggressive in this thread. Time for me to shut up, I guess. I wish there were more people like @Mephisto. Could have been a good discussion.

 

[criticalerror]

Mature discussion is healthy

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Of course. Totally agreed. But mature discussion should be done in the spirit of respect. I believe that is one of the prerequisites of a mature discussion.

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[EternalBlizzard]

Yes, I think it is fair that Islam should share part of the blame. When you think about it, it doesn't even matter whether the "real" Islam is peaceful or hateful. Let's just deal with evident facts, and be a little objectively analytical about this:

There is a very simple reason why words like "Muslim terrorist" exist but not "Christian terrorist" or "Buddhist terrorist" or "Shinto terrorist". Take out all acts of terrorism in the last 10 years, and compare those committed by Muslims with those committed by non-Muslims. You will see a certain pattern in all cases of Islamic terrorism that is absent in perpetrators of non-Islamic faith. A non-Muslim terrorist, most of the time, is simply a terrorist who happens to belong to a particular faith. But a Muslim terrorist is almost always a terrorist BECAUSE of his faith, not in spite of it. There is a direct causal link here. A terrorist who is a Christian, for example, most of the time does not use his faith as a motive for killing. He doesn't shout "FOR JESUS" before opening fire. But Muslim terrorists almost always dedicate their crime to the glory of Islam and the Prophet and Allah and invariably shout "Allah-o-Akbar" before triggering their guns/bombs. Considering this, Islamophobia is quite valid. When Islam is blamed in general for the crimes of a few Muslim terrorists, but they don't do the same for the crimes of non-Muslim terrorists, it isn't prejudice. Islamophobia has strong basis in facts.

Now, whether this terrorism is simply a result of misinterpretation is totally irrelevant. Let's forget the matter of interpretation altogether. We're dealing with facts, right? Well, the fact of the matter is, Islam, either intentionally or unintentionally, IS promoting and inspiring murder and violence and in this way, is deserving of blame. Why is no other popular religion misinterpreted as often and as violently as Islam?

You speak beautifully but there are holes in ur argument ben :s First of all why do we even consider those terrorists muslims in the first place? They aren't muslims.. You don't become a Muslim just by having a long darhi, wearing shalwar above ur ankles and chanting "Allah-o-Akbar" do you? Then how the *** are they muslims? I ask every fellow Muslim brother to stop calling them "Muslim" terrorist. That itself is misleading and doesn't help defending Islam. The fact you believe they are Muslims has led you to believe that Islam promotes violence.

Secondly why don't we see a terrorist shout "For Jesus" ? good question. Isn't this a good possibility that because of a certain someone's prejudice against Islam and Muslims, both of them are being "framed". There is/might be a fatal difference between your so called "Muslim" terrorist and non-muslim terrorrist ( though i believe they don't exist... terrorists are just terrorists) The so called "muslim" terrorists are being trained to have darhi and shout "Allahu Akbar" while the non muslim ones aren't trained. They are just born with the natural flow, they aren't being trained to target Islam while the so called "muslim" terrorists are being trained to target Islam. Why don't people think of this possibility?

 

[Benighted]

An ideology when interpreted improperly can be used for bad, can it not? Contribution of Islam to society has been well documented by both Muslims and non-Muslims, therefore doesn't require much clarification. The state of non-Muslims before Islam is well known, burying girls, raping women, incest, war on petty issues that lasted through generations etc. Yet they were transformed in to one of the best societies of that time thanks to Islam.

Well-documented? Not in the least. There is very little information available about pre-Islamic Arabia apart from Islamic sources. Burial of girls is probably a myth perpetuated by Islam. Arabs would have gone extinct if burying of girls was as common is purported to be by apologists. Then again, you take all your history lessons from the Quran, so you probably do not need a second source to feel confident in its truth.

Besides, Islam brought with it its own culture of loot, rape, torture and war. So whether it actually improved the quality of life is very debatable.

Who are these scholars that you repeatedly keep mentioning about? What's there authenticity? We live in a society where just keeping a beard, promotes you to Malwi status. Do we not research thoroughly before joining a university? Do we not research thoroughly while purchasing a mundane item? Then why do we not inquire about the authenticity of the cleric of a mosque? Is he even qualified? Did he even study Islam? Is he there just to earn money the easy way? That right there is the problem. When you go for a job interview, you are analyzed by professionals. Meanwhile, a committee of guys, who are incapable, are handed over the task to pick a cleric for the mosque.

They know their scriptures well, I assure you. I'm not talking about Mullahs beating madrassah children with sticks. Problem is, Islam is divided into many versions today, and you probably only consider one from your own sects and ones you agree with "authentic". Anyone who goes against your views must necessarily be misguided and uneducated. If only!

 

[EternalBlizzard]

Well-documented? Not in the least. There is very little information available about pre-Islamic Arabia apart from Islamic sources. Burial of girls is probably a myth perpetuated by Islam. Arabs would have gone extinct if burying of girls was as common is purported to be by apologists. Then again, you take all your history lessons from the Quran, so you probably do not need a second source to feel confident in its truth.

Besides, Islam brought with it its own culture of loot, rape, torture and war. So whether it actually improved the quality of life is very debatable.

lol dude that's the part they are getting angry on xDD You sound like you don't believe in what everything Islam and Quran teaches and want to confirm those things that's the difference. We are muslims because we accepted Islam is the correct religion. Doubting on it doesn't help. That aside the whole point was to believe in something you can't see or comprehend so why do u need a secondary source to confirm if it says the truth or not?

 

[Benighted]

You speak beautifully but there are holes in ur argument ben :s First of all why do we even consider those terrorists muslims in the first place? They aren't muslims.. You don't become a Muslim just by having a long darhi, wearing shalwar above ur ankles and chanting "Allah-o-Akbar" do you? Then how the *** are they muslims? I ask every fellow Muslim brother to stop calling them "Muslim" terrorist. That itself is misleading and doesn't help defending Islam. The fact you believe they are Muslims has led you to believe that Islam promotes violence.

Secondly why don't we see a terrorist shout "For Jesus" ? good question. Isn't this a good possibility that because of a certain someone's prejudice against Islam and Muslims, both of them are being "framed". There is/might be a fatal difference between your so called "Muslim" terrorist and non-muslim terrorrist ( though i believe they don't exist... terrorists are just terrorists) The so called "muslim" terrorists are being trained to have darhi and shout "Allahu Akbar" while the non muslim ones aren't trained. They are just born with the natural flow, they aren't being trained to target Islam while the so called "muslim" terrorists are being trained to target Islam. Why don't people think of this possibility?

Blizzard: We can make a lot of observations about us Muslims that Westerners can not. Living in Pakistan gives us that advantage. Being part of the population, it doesn't take much to notice general trends in the beliefs of the people you are living with. I personally know Taliban and Qadri supporters from my own university. That's how I know they are Muslims. These groups have sympathizers in every demographic in our country, in different numbers. If educated muslims, who have never been to a mardassah can give these militants their vote of confidence, isn't it reasonable to suppose that the actual terrorists are Muslims as well of a similar mentality but greater aggression? I think if you apply Occam's razor, the likelihood of the terrorists being real Muslims is far better than the frame-hypothesis.
@Jshak: Thank you for allowing me to continue thus far. I know you probably disagree with my views here, but I appreciate the fact that you don't feel threatened by a critique of religion. Users here should learn from you.

And now I'm out of here. Peace, everybody.