I know that when talking criticism of Islam, I mostly say "the holy book/scripture" or something like that, which probably gives the impression that I am referring to the Quran only. But I mean to include the Sunnah as well. I understand its importance.
Just thought I should make that clear.
Hmm ok. Sunnah's importance can't be overstated. Sects will go to way over it.
Quite understandable too. I am sorry if my manner seems like I enjoy enraging people by running my mouth about a religion about which I supposedly know nothing about. My only intention in this thread was to point out the possibility of Islam, as an ideology, being complicit in terrorism, and an innocent wish on my part for the believers to take a second sincere look at their beliefs. Thinking critically doesn't necessarily lead to abandoning of your beliefs. It could end up strengthening it too.
I understand your intent but I think we are an emotional nation and your push is towards a really slippery slope. I'm not sure if it's good that people maintain the inherited status quo of the 'faith' they receive because of family and social constructs, or should they question their faith and risk either losing whatever form of faith they have or gain the absolute version of it.
I somehow got lucky and came back from the verge of losing it completely when I was 17 and that's why I'm really afraid. I didn't make any real effort on my own part to regain that faith just by its edges. I feel I got lucky, or there was some Divine intervention and the order of things that happened to me were too calculated to be coincidences. That's why even if someone has that inherited faith which can take them to the mosque for prayers I don't feel compelled to challenge their brains. I know Allah is Almighty and merciful and would forgive even those with 'inherited faith'.
I think that is probably the most important point to emerge from the side of believers in this thread. It explains where the two sides are coming from and how irreconcilable the two worldviews are, and therefore, why this discussion won't lead anywhere. Faith obviously holds an importance to you that is lost on me. Difficult arguing around that.
True. Many people who convert aren't because of their extensive research into Islam, however there are those as well who reach this conclusion out of studying Islam before being a Muslim. Some convert because of being actually impressed by the behaviors of true Muslims around them. Some because they're seeking for answers that they didn't find anywhere else.
From a Muslim's perspective, that's how it must be. You are already inside the system and thus, only play by its own rules, which will never be under question from you. But how satisfactory a method of giving acceptance to a belief do you think this is?
Islam is not the only faith there is. Don't you think that, since you agree that the matters of faith are not subject to logic or evidence, all faiths are thus equivalent in their validity? Do you think that members of a particular faith whose views about a particular matter are loathsome to you deserve the same respect that you expect for members of your own faith?
Every human being deserves our respect as a human irrespective of their faith and belief. And I find it so extremely convenient to talk to a person of faith than a complete non-believer and I find it to be easier to be respectful. I feel must more comfortable in explaining my belief and the concept of Imaan-Bil-Ghaib because that also forms their faith.
It's absolutely fascinating for Christians to learn that Muslims also await the second coming of Jesus. My friend was astounded to learn that I named my daughter after the name of Jesus's Mother, Hazrat Mariam (
عليه السلام) who they call Mary. Yousuf (
عليه السلام) is Joseph, Abraham is Ibrahim (
عليه السلام), Michael is Mikaeel
عليه السلام and Gabriel is Jibraeel
عليه السلام, Jonas is Younus
عليه السلام, Zacharias is Zakaria
عليه السلام and so a Muslim can't be a Muslim unless he believes in all of them as messengers/prophets of Allah. If I don't believe in Christ or Moses, I can't be a Muslim for I'm doubting the Quran. I tell them that we believe and acknowledge the scripts sent towards Moses and Jesus and that Islam is like your final testament. Muslims believe that there were tens of thousands of prophets sent towards mankind and most of the faiths are what is left of the Islam for those prophets.
I do not pose these questions as a challenge to you. I am honestly interested in your thoughts. Likewise for what follows:
That's ok. I hope I answered your intended interests.
You said that Islam, though not actually a field of science, is nonetheless detailed and complex enough to warrant the same kind of study that advanced calculus may require.
I think one can reach the highest levels of Calculus completely using a few books, internet and self study and practices. I also believe that's not possible in case of Islam. Islam can only be rightfully learnt in apprenticeship. It's adopted practice and learning.
Don't you think this makes Islam unsuitable in the hands of the common layman? Shouldn't it be something only the enlightened few, an elite group so to speak, should practice and follow? You do, I hope, acknowledge that it can be AND is being misused by people who you believe to be ignorant of this religion. You can't, if we are realistic about this, expect the common man to dedicate years of time in its study. Considering that, how safe do you think Islam is as the religion of the common man?
It's kinda like the Jedi order lol
The care-taking of the fatwas and ijtehad should only reside with the elites, the ulemas and muftis. Scholars who've spent years in the apprenticeship of the Ulemas of their times, preserving the practices of the Prophet ﷺ. A common man can't be expected to dedicate so many years of his time to learn Islam. But he can respect those who have and heed to their advice.
That's what I'm saying. Once you're a Muslim, the basics are straight forward. Kalma, Zakat, Namaz, Hajj, Roza. I mean that's all pretty trivial? To be honest, it takes every ounce of control and strength I have to even get those basics done and not even in the most "ahsan" manner. I mean if I just consider the Kalma and just the first part of the Kalma 'La Ilaaha IllAllah' - I realize how incomplete of a Muslim I am. I mean I trust the weather app more for planning the weekend BBQ than the power of two rikah nafil namaz hajat.
It's like I was given the first lesson as a homework and told to return when I've mastered it. I still haven't, I'm struggling. Because once you master the basics, it becomes clear how to choose the right Ulema as your guide and not the phonys who rely on logical constructs to base belief on.
Of course everyday you're bombarded with challenges when you're trying to be a basic Muslim. Finance, Insurance, etc. SO I just follow the same principles I follow for seeking services like medical and banking and legal. I google the basics and then I got for the recommended doctor/bank/lawyer/accountant. Similarly when I'm looking for Islamic advice, I do a bit of Google to read up some discussions on the matter to identify questions that I'm not even considering and then based on recommendations I meet the mufti or muftis who guide me towards a decision. When I make that decision, I pray to Allah that I sought out guidance by the Sunnah manner to the best of my abilities and then I do whatever that needs to be done.
A little example I like to share. I live in Melbourne. Around 15% Muslims live here and some of the northern suburbs are saturated with Arabs and Turks who make the bulk of the Muslims. There are muftis and ulema councils here, mostly middle eastern, which are relaxed and factors convenience. They're OK with Hala versions of the KFCs and Nandos here and you'll see a lot of scarf covered heads in there. I tend to avoid these places like I avoid ham. Why? Because there are a few ulema councils that are a bit more rigid in what they call Halaal. So there's a term call "Hand Slaughter Halaal" and the 'usual' Halaal. This is only a problem for chickens, not for lambs/cows/etc. Chickens are mass processed and automated blade fans/stunning is used to kill the birds rather than a zabeeha method. Of course, doing a zabeeha on a chicken considerably slows down the process and is more expensive. Whereas having one person constantly reciting the Kalma while touching the automated machine is cheaper and with same processing times as regular chicken.
So I had two options. One set of Ulemas believe it to be Halaal. One considers only hand slaughter as Halaal. Of course all the big chains source the cheapest chickens with Halaal certifications and get the non hand slaughter version. But there are some local chains that source hand slaughter chicken, are slightly expensive and not branded. I love KFC and Nandos but I just couldn't convince myself to choose it. I tried my best by the way, I went to the outlet, researched their supplier and called and confirmed the supplier exactly how they process chickens. It wasn't the sunnah way. Now I'll probably have Nandos all the time when I get back for vacations in Pakistan or Dubai.
If there was no hand slaughter option, I might've gone with the Ulema Council. I don't know for sure. But I do believe there's an inner voice, a conscience, that tells you what you want more.
Excuse the extremely long hyperbolic answer and I sincerely hope I answered your query. A more direct answer, which I believe you want from me, is that people who think they can learn Islam completely through reading only are forgetting what it means to be a Muslim. And that's what most of the religious movements these days are about, specially the Tableeghi jamaat. They try to make sure an individual is oriented correctly in trying to live his life as a Muslim.
I like how their core message spawns from the Kalma itself, the entry to Islam. There is no God but Allah. This is the key, we have to believe in the absolute sovereignty of Allah. No ifs and buts and that's where it all starts. Allah is beyond time and space and has control over everything, to the tiniest of tiny microbe to the largest of the largest celestial. We are told that we can't comprehend Allah's being and we shouldn't even try. Allah knows our limits. Even Science tells us about our extremely limited perceptive capabilities. Anyways, most of us can't even fully act on the first part of the Kalma itself. Every now and then we have more belief in the logical cause and effects like food will diminish hunger or water will quench thirst. We are required to believe that water only quenches our thirst because Allah wills to.
The second part of Kalma is for our faith in the finality of Prophet Muhammad ﷺ. And his actions are the best practical models for us to follow. SO every Muslim should ask, "what would Muhammad ﷺ do?" before doing anything. If you can't answer that question yourself, you find someone reliable who can.
Every Muslim should know. Allah won't let anyone destroy Islam. Allah has taken upon himself to protect the Quran. All we gotta worry about is making sure we're on the right side. We're liable to answer for ourselves and all things under our dominion. Nothing more, nothing less.
