Do we have free will?

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LordIT

LordIT

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This is one of those topics that when you look at it logically, you begin to uproot the concept of heaven-hell. But when you look at it through eyes of faith, it becomes devoid of logic.

Some people use this confusion to try to justify their wrongdoings.. others are looking for loopholes to do stuff they're not supposed to.. while some just wonder why would they have to burn in hell if they're only playing the part of the villain in God's script.

I dont see a logical answer to this discussion that would be backed by faith, or a faithful answer that would be backed by logic. Both are inadequate without the other.
 
M

munsifb

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Shary Bhallu TC said:
I believe it is complete free will to us. God knows what I will do, but he has given me the choice to do what I want. God knows that I will continue to write this message, and will press submit. At this point, I don't know if some glitch would make the reply illegible (due to some error) or perfectly legible, but God knows the outcome. Lets see what happens when I click submit, as per my own free will...

Edit: Perfectly legible. Again, it was my choice to click edit and insert this paragraph in it. If I wanted, I'd have ignored it... :)
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Its again the same thing. God knows the outcome so we will only take that choice which will give that outcome. So we don't have any choices just illusion of choices
 
Raza7154

Raza7154

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LordIT said:
I dont see a logical answer to this discussion that would be backed by faith, or a faithful answer that would be backed by logic. Both are inadequate without the other.
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really? consider this scenario....

i put two mice in an entire room that has been converted into a maze.... from my view up top, i can see every possible path they can take (all knowing), and since i put them in the maze in the first place, every step they take in that maze is by my will... at the end of the run, i will judge the mice based on how they performed in the maze.... positively to the ones who performed up to my expectations, and negatively to those who weren't good.... the mice still retain their free will while in the maze so they can do everything they want....

don't separate Islam from logic... if religion deviates from basic logic, how is it even a religion?
 
LordIT

LordIT

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Raza7154 said:
really? consider this scenario....

i put two mice in an entire room that has been converted into a maze.... from my view up top, i can see every possible path they can take (all knowing), and since i put them in the maze in the first place, every step they take in that maze is by my will... at the end of the run, i will judge the mice based on how they performed in the maze.... positively to the ones who performed up to my expectations, and negatively to those who weren't good.... the mice still retain their free will while in the maze so they can do everything they want....

don't separate Islam from logic... if religion deviates from basic logic, how is it even a religion?
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Logic and faith are the same thing for me.. I never separated them. But I just havent found an adequate answer to this question. Your mice example can be easily countered - and we'll be going in circles until tomorrow with examples and counter examples.
 
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Nauman 360

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free will is not exactly defined... are you free to do anything you want within your physical limitations? No. there is just an illusion of choice. I find it amusing because the people on here that are telling you that you literally have free will don't have ANY real control over anything either.
If you were told at this very moment to think of a 8 digit number in your mind, could you have chosen a different number than the one you do? In a universe exactly the same atom by atom and the question asked by the same person at the same moment in the same manner with the same things going on around you and you being in exactly the same mental state, Nope.
Every event precedes a chain of events that happened before it, 'WE' my friend, are nothing but more events ourselves.
so in a manner of speaking your 'fate' was sealed the moment you were born.. or more specifically the moment everything began.
 
Benighted

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LordIT said:
Logic and faith are the same thing for me..
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I take it apples and oranges too are the same thing for you?

Religion may use logic here and there (See Raza's example), but it certainly isn't the same thing as logic.

I do believe in free will, in the sense aptly described by Schopenhauer "Man can do as he wills but not will as he wills".
 
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munsifb

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Raza7154 said:
really? consider this scenario....

i put two mice in an entire room that has been converted into a maze.... from my view up top, i can see every possible path they can take (all knowing), and since i put them in the maze in the first place, every step they take in that maze is by my will... at the end of the run, i will judge the mice based on how they performed in the maze.... positively to the ones who performed up to my expectations, and negatively to those who weren't good.... the mice still retain their free will while in the maze so they can do everything they want....

don't separate Islam from logic... if religion deviates from basic logic, how is it even a religion?
Click to expand...
If you put two mice in a maze and look from above you will be all seeing not all knowing. Yo can see every possible path but you will not know what paths the mice with take.
 
Tultras

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Benighted said:
I take it apples and oranges too are the same thing for you?

Religion may use logic here and there (See Raza's example), but it certainly isn't the same thing as logic.

I do believe in free will, in the sense aptly described by Schopenhauer "Man can do as he wills but not will as he wills".
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That one quote can answer the OP, provided he can understand it.
 
Raza7154

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Life is like a game of cards. The hand you are dealt is determinism; the way you play it is free will ~ Jawaharlal Nehru

​
 
Raza7154

Raza7154

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munsifb said:
If you put two mice in a maze and look from above you will be all seeing not all knowing. Yo can see every possible path but you will not know what paths the mice with take.
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you do realize that it was a basic example off the top of my head?
 
Shary Bhallu TC

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munsifb said:
Its again the same thing. God knows the outcome so we will only take that choice which will give that outcome. So we don't have any choices just illusion of choices
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God only knows the outcome, he does not determine it. The determination part is left up to you. That is where free-will comes in.
 
azharkhan

azharkhan

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No Rules & Free will if we are away from our religion.
In our religion there are some rules and there is an extent of free will we can choose or not to.
& in the end we says " Jo hota hai achay ke liye hota hai "
Thats our belief in ALLAH.
So stay happy and dont Overthink.
 
r3aper

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I heard a quote sometime back, I am not very sure but if memory serves me right.. Hazrat Ali (R.A.) said it, here's a summary of it (may Allah forgive me for any mis quote)

One of his companions asked about haram and halal income, he responded that what you will earn through out your life is predetermined but how you plan on earnining it is your choice (hence the concept of haram and halal income).

Spoiler: show
There is a complete story behind it, about a guy stealing something from his horse I can't remember it at this point and can't research about it from office. If someone knows about it do share an authentic source here.


For me it very well explains the concept of free will. I surmise that some parameters are set for us and how we plan to move towards them is our choice.

I myself have witnessed some situations where a forced NO from myside was converted miraculously (perspective) into a YES. My decision - which was a big one - was reverted back I did all I could to maintain a NO but apparently my choice had little role to play. It did change things for me and now when I look at it, it does look like something which I would have regretted in the longer run.

You do good, you get good. Thats the end of it in my book.
 
assasin42o

assasin42o

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Aug 9, 2009
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Nauman 360 said:
To put it simply No, free will is an illusion. we are biological machines created, influenced and shaped by the surroundings, which is shaped by its own surrounding and so on...and we don't know how far out this goes.
If I was born in your place at the same time with your genes with perfectly the same surrounding guess what! i'd not be similar to you, I'd BE you. that's how individual we really are... many and insignificant like grains of sand on a beach, with no control over anything.. we are just the universe itself observing itself.

but i'd rather go thinking I choose to do what I choose to do and not over complicate things... which again is the result of billions and billions of events preceding the moment where I know I don't have control over anything, yet keep the mentality that I do have control over at least some things, which I don't.
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EXACTLY!


munsifb said:
Game developer doesn't know what will the ending but acccording to Islam Allah knows our ultimate fate what we do is already decided ( maybe I am wrong about this but thats what I heard)

On Topic--

Also, if god determines the outcome , what's the point. Back to square one , don't you think.
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THIS!


I am always thinking. If GOD knows everything, (Since he's the God), what's OUR purpose? He already knows that what will happen next, regardless of what choice I make, he knows. So what's the WHOLE purpose?


Another thing, Person A, was born in a wealthy family. He had all the things he would need in this world. He decided to be really religious, and Islamic, and thankful to God, he devotes himself in the path of religion. But he still enjoys the luxuries gifted to him.

Person B is born in a needy family. He has 6 siblings, with 2 parents, all to take care of. Now everything is going against him, depending on the environment, he's NOT SO religious, he doesn't have time, and his stress doesn't allow him to do that. He's always thinking about his family. He doesn't pray, fast, and even has started to drink.

Person A goes to heaven. Let's suppose Person B also goes to heaven (Since he served his family), now they both stand on the same place. But isn't it unfair for Person B who had a 10x more TOUGHER life than Person A, and in the end, they're both in the same place?
 
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