Wife: Burger King consolized burger hai.What if the husband wanted to eat Burger King?
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it's possible but then there are detailed accounts/reports such as these: https://www.osac.gov/pages/ContentReportDetails.aspx?cid=13573Koi bhi society perfect nahin hai leikin Saudi Arabia mein burahi per kaafi haadth taak control hai.
Agar aap crime report USA aur Pakistan ki deikho gai tu hosh urr jain ge.it's possible but then there are detailed accounts/reports such as these: https://www.osac.gov/pages/ContentReportDetails.aspx?cid=13573
khair, it doesn't really matter.
Excuse me?Thread starter ko hi deikh loi, apni biwi ki "inadequate modesty" kei maamle mein per powerless bana bhatha hai. Agar Muslim mard hai to yeh uss ka major failure hai.
I see what you did thereWife: Burger King consolized burger hai.
You may have rested your case but its an inadequate case...and thanks for the ad-hominem by the way. All the evidence is right there, you just don't like to accept it.@neox3d
I have already rested my case . You have provided not a shred of fact to support your opinion so i fail to see a point in continuing our argument.
Summarized answer
As i already have proven, stopping someone from evil is common sense. If the same common sense is applied to Islam, it becomes a matter of contention. Islamic model requires communal effort in eradication of sins. I might not be a alcoholic , for example, i can then stop you from indulging in alcohol. I am atleast allowed this by any sane world system to express my displeasure at your act or suggest you to stop. Freedom of speech isnt it? By same logic , If something is against Islamic law, in a country based on Islam(atleast in letter) i am atleast allowed to suggest you to stop. Common sense isnt as common as it sounds i guess.
Sparta was not a "religion" last time i checked. It was an autonomous city/state inside greece, and could not even maintain those rights beyond the greco-roman empire. If it did, the west wouldnt ve needed a "Renaissance". I specifically mentioned religions.Islam is the only "religion" in the world that provides sweeping rights to women. Rights that have transcended dynasties, civilizations etc. E.g Islam is the only religion allowing a women to initiate a divorce. No other religion has this. Christianity didnt even recognize divorce till the catholic church was "invented".Judaism still doesnt. It allows only the husband right to divorce.
One example in a thousand.
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Repeating the same thing does not prove your case. The thing is there is not even proper agreement on Hadith, laws to bht duur ki bath hai. Islam is not monolithic you know.Hadith IS islamic law. You have done nothing to prove otherwise. There is no example of an act forbidden/allowed in Sunnah , that has not been accordingly forbidden/allowed in Shariah. Read through Shariah before making sweeping statements having no basis in reality. Nitpicking does not change meaning.
The reason this is because west mei islam bht soft hai. Islam biggest issues in the west are Pork, Alcohol, Hijab, thats it. The day we brought SHaria law in front of everyone this west will kick us out. We are required to cut of hands of thief, flog the adulterous, stone the prostitue and behead the apostate. This is the Sharia law, and the civilized first world will not accept this, they still don't that is why many in europe are seriously considering to shut their borders and keep us out. So don't be under any illusions.Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world, specifically in the west. If it held no appeal, such growth would be illogical. Statistics are available both with Guiness book of world records as well as the Institute on Culture, Religion & World Affairs at Boston University(World Religous Database). It is both the fastest growing religion in the USA as well as Europe. The two bastions of modern civilization.
I am not attacking Islam, I am criticizing our misuse and mistreatment of it...and sweeping away some illsuions of fake granduer which some have here of our great culture.If i were among atheists , our discussions would be welcome. It is downright shameful for me to be defending the fabric of Islam infront of muslims.
Since you would like to take this further , so be it. An inadequate case would be one where you quote so called facts without any proof. Hence your post. You have not provided a single "source" for your points. If it were bonafide, giving a source would ve not been such an issue for you.You may have rested your case but its an inadequate case...and thanks for the ad-hominem by the way. All the evidence is right there, you just don't like to accept it.
O bhai kahan se laitey ho misinformation, women can initiate divorce only under SOME CIRCUMSTANCES in islam...and even if that is the case, A qazi has to hear the case and if he finds no suitable reason the women is denied divorce in sharia. The wife, unlike man, cannot unilaterally divorce her husband, by calling out divorce 3 times succesfully.
The same is in Jewish law, if the huband has left her, or has commited adultery, the women can go to the Sanhedrin and ask for divorce and the Sanhedrin can force the man to divorce the woman.
Divorce is HARAAM in Christianity, except when one partner has commited adultery. Both men and women can initiate divorce since the time of hazrat Isa. So please get your facts straight.
What I wrote about all those nations is very important, because you claim Islam to be a complete culture not just a religion and I agree and I just wanted to update you that those cultures gave women rights long before Islam did. islam got it only in middle east though.
Repeating the same thing does not prove your case. The thing is there is not even proper agreement on Hadith, laws to bht duur ki bath hai. Islam is not monolithic you know.
The reason this is because west mei islam bht soft hai. Islam biggest issues in the west are Pork, Alcohol, Hijab, thats it. The day we brought SHaria law in front of everyone this west will kick us out. We are required to cut of hands of thief, flog the adulterous, stone the prostitue and behead the apostate. This is the Sharia law, and the civilized first world will not accept this, they still don't that is why many in europe are seriously considering to shut their borders and keep us out. So don't be under any illusions.
West mei aurat bhi namaz parha daiti hai masjid mei, jamaat bhi lead kar laiti hai, immamat krwati hai, Ye islam hai? ye islam nahi hai bhai meray.
I am not attacking Islam, I am criticizing our misuse and mistreatment of it...and sweeping away some illsuions of fake granduer which some have here of our great culture.
Cahlo nayi kahani daal di hai ab...you jo aap itnay claims kar rahey hain, inki konsi support dee hai ap ney?Since you would like to take this further , so be it. An inadequate case would be one where you quote so called facts without any proof. Hence your post. You have not provided a single "source" for your points. If it were bonafide, giving a source would ve not been such an issue for you.
Oh bhai , misinformation is what you are spreading. The example was off the top of my head. Even a simple google search will enlighten you on the subject . Christianity recognized divorce "AFTER THE 17TH CENTURY". In Judaism, the law was " )amended". In its purest form it had no such law for women. Islam atleast give women the option under certain circumstances.My point stands unless proved otherwise by anything else than personal opinions.
My point exactly. Repeating the same without a shred of evidence does not change anything. You have not provided an example yet again. If you had such a strong case providing an example would be trivial. What sects beleive to be hadith is an entirely different issue.
I am quite amazed that you are giving your own "opinions" and passing that off as conventional wisdom. I gave you statistics. You gave an opinion on those statistics. Not facts. Islam in its real form is the most tolerant religion. It is free of discrimination. It is still the fastest growing regardless of opinions like yours.
And west main aurat nay sirf ik dafa nimaz parhai in new york. It was not even from a mainstream sect. Get your facts straight before misguiding the youth on this forum.
I will carry on this discussion once you bring something solid to the table , rather than what you "feel" on the subject. We have not followed the real Islam. That is our fault. Not Islam's. As i said. Downright shameful.
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When this point was made in post # 290;Excuse me?
Do you even know me? Do you know my wife? Do you know how she dresses?
Even if my wife dresses in a bikini it's none of your fucking concern.
Keep in your limits and don't be personal.
I stopped responding to you, when I realized that jo loug "Delusions mein rehtay hein ky their society is much better than others , contrary to what they see "
they are hopeless cases.
You wanna be a powerful egomaniac with high degree of myopia towards women and a personal sense of narcissism about how great you are, and how you are not a doormat, by all means exercise that right.
But don't judge my wife, or what I do.
I asked just what would you do in such a case. I NEVER EVER claimed that MY WIFE was doing it.
You know what Failure is BEta ?
Failure is inability to grasp the fact that there are 70 different religions in the world and each of them have just as much a right to claim the pathway to the heaven as your self-conceived perfect Islam is.
Sirf Kalima parh kar jo loug samjhtey hein na Baksh deyein jayein gy, chahay unki Harkatein jaisi bi hon , they are living in a fool's paradise.
Let me point out countless failures in Pakistan in last 60 years.
1. Falling stagnating economy.
2. No contribution in the field of science barring one exception in last 200 years.
3. No accountability anywhere.
4. No electricity in summer no gas in winter.
5. Men who think they can subjugate their women because they are their property...
i could keep going up to 50 and I wouldn't stop.
I never point out at the moral decay of the West , when our own house is just as worse.
Failure is you living in a fool's paradise thinking that if you control your family and wife you will go to heaven, and those who give their wife a certain degree of freedom are doomed to life of eternal damnation.
I have respected your opinions in all the posts and stopped talking to you when I realized it was banging my head against a wall.
But if you point out at my "PERCEIVED Failures in your eyes " and bring my wife into this, I will bring you to your knees.
And please go check my original post and the post after that. It wasn't my own wife I was talking about, not that it matters. I don't care what she wears and I don't really care what your wears. If she wears a Hijab so be it, I won't say that's a failure on your part.
This is my last post to you in this thread.
Keep living in your self-made coccoon that your society is best in the world, and Muslim society is the best in the world.
- you were sleeping?My point is not stupid, it would be harder for you to reach common ground on matters of values since you and your wife come from different backgrounds (Assuming that you have a non-Muslim wife).
Analogy: a Muslim wife will understand your concern in relation to modesty much more easily then a non-Muslim wife. This is a matter of compatibility factor in the aspect of values of right and wrong.
Their are exceptions in every aspect but we focus on norm, not exceptions.
Your generalization have nothing to do with my assertions in this matter. I didn't advice you to FORCE your "way of life" on your wife but their are certain matters in which you need to define limits or boundaries for your marriage. These are your "expectations" from your wife in your marriage. All sane couples define boundaries in their relationships, this happens in Western societies too. This isn't about controlling your spouse but to define the shape of your marriage. Both husband and wife mutually define boundaries in their marriage.
Not defining boundaries is not a wise way to steer a relationship. People should know that you have a sense of self-worth and that you are not to be walked over. You have expectations from your partner that SHOULD be met for relationship to flourish.
If you just decide to be a doormat in your relationship by not setting boundaries in your relationship, you are not doing yourself any favor. You will be spoiling your wife in the long run with this kind of mindset. Real men don't do this and take precautionary measures, real women too.
Nai kahani koi nahien daali. The same discussion. It is what i have been saying all along. Someone's opinions do not count as evidence for a theory. I have qouted statistics of growth for one. Those statistics are a matter of public record . i have told you the sources of these statistics. I have given you research papers on treatment of women in ancient greece. I have quoted the hadith from an authentic source. I quoted the Quran. I could probably write a book on sources alone and you would respond with an opinion. Hence the futility of our discussion.Cahlo nayi kahani daal di hai ab...you jo aap itnay claims kar rahey hain, inki konsi support dee hai ap ney?
When this point was made in post # 290;
- you were sleeping?
Fine I assume that your wife is a prostitute, are you gonna clarify that for me?It is your responsibility to clarify that you are married or not and that you are talking about your wife or not. Don't give me "I wrote this in start of the thread." It is your responsibility to clarify your position in a discussion if assumptions are being made about your situation.
It's my responsibility to clarify if im married or not, and it's not your responsibility to check your facts before making sweeping statements?
Seriously Legend123 , i am beginning to question whether this discussion is worthwhile or not.
Like the way you judged me as a doormat on the basis of some posts?I do not live in delusions, I am realist in all aspects of life. You cannot judge me on the basis of some posts here, maybe my points give more toughness vibe then they should but I know when to stand-up for my values and I am not burger type like you.
Make up your mind.
You want to judge others, yet you do not want others to judge you.
Do you not see the clear hypocrisy?
Signs that you don't understand reality.Signs of burgernism in you:
1. Considers Western societies as role models for us to follow
2. Thinks that Western societies have less social decay then ours
3. Wrongly assumes that Pakistan women are victimized on the whole in Pakistan
4. Have little understanding of Islamic values but claims to be a Muslim
5. Believes in Western conceptions of gender equality but have no idea of gender rights as per Islamic values
6. Starts bringing issues of Pakistan in a discussion about another matter which is irrelevant thing to do
7. Assumes that "what I think is right" and others are jerks
8. Does not understands the importance of setting boundaries in a marriage
1. I consider any society which is progressive as role model. If Islamic society is progressing and successful, I'll consider that path to follow. If at the moment, Western society is successful, I try to follow their principles.
I don't blindly label people burger and then go attack them , when they don't follow Islamic way of life.
2. No they have social decay. But our social decay is present in all walks of life. Theirs is just in social decay related to rapes and prostitution.
3. Pakistani women are victimized a lot. We can agree to disagree.
4. I don't have to follow your thoughts Legend123 to make me complete Muslim. I have just as much a right to claim myself to be Muslim , then you do. There are Muslims in the West too, you know. Not just Pakistan.
5. I really don't want to answer that.
6. No the issues were brought by yourself. I merely brought the issue of dresses. It turned into Islamic way of life, and then Pakistan was brought into it. So please, if you stuck to the dresses part, there would be no Pakistan thing going on.
When you started praising Pakistan as the best in the world, I obviously had no choice but to show you your delusion.
7. No, it's rather you who is enforcing your opinion by making remarks like "Burger" and "Doormat". Had you refrained from making such remarks, I would never have told you that you live in delusions or feelings of grandeur。
Apny jo khud start kya, uska blame meray par na dalo. Please.
8. I don't believe in any boundaries in marriage. It's true. Marriage is made out of love. If your wife loves you, she will do whatever she wants for you to be happy.
If your marriage is just a contract, then off course you need boundaries.
I am pretty sure, if I start being personal with you, I would be handed a straight forward ban and you would run away.Also, if you don't want people to make remarks about you, do not open threads about your personal matters or even those of others. If you do this then grow some spine and take the heat.
Just because you are Mod, you are saying I should bear the heat
Ohh.... I tremble with fear.Next time you insult me and put labels on me, my response would be swift and decisive in accordance. I have tolerated enough of your BS already.
You can put labels on me, yet no one can put labels on you.
Shall I bow before you , Your Majesty ?
Ban me if you can't bear the heat.
If it helps you sleep well at night, ban me permanently and keep living in denial.
Thank you!
I would have agreed with you a couple of years back. But now i think of it from a different perspective and i have my own questions.saudi arabia is a terrible place to live, not because it's an islamic state, but because for instance, they have an orwellian control over their media and actively try to suppress any conflicting perspectives. you wouldn't know about the arab spring protests in saudi, or the number of protesters that were killed, because of their ardent policing of any anti-saudi sentiment in the foreign media. you wouldn't know the cases of murders, oppression, rape and rampant homosexuality (google it) that go completely unreported. not to mention the ubiquitous xenophobia and racism, which has existed in arab culture for at least a thousand years. saudi is as culturally corrupt as any nation in the world, maybe even more. no need to delude yourself into thinking otherwise. the holy city of mecca and medina have utmost importance but they have nothing to do with saudi as a country.
I have given no theory, I gave you history, yet you refuse to accept it, I can only surmise that you are not aware of the historical context of the text or have not studied it or are simply misinformed. I have not contested your statistics, I didn't contest the papar you quoted on women in greece. Infact I apologized to you for my mistake. But what you are passing along with it is what I hold objection too and I have already told you that you need to check your facts about the dicvorce thing. Islam mei aurat ko divorce sirf kuch khas circumstances mei he allow hai, wo bhi agar Qazi ijazit dei, same like jewish law. Mard k tarah unilateral nahi hai. Brabari tou ye hai k aurat bhi 3 baar boley aur divorce ho jaye. Christian mazhab mei divovrce HARAAM hai, sirf zina/adultery k soorat mei allowed hai. Aur ye kanoon islam se bhi pehle ka hai.Nai kahani koi nahien daali. The same discussion. It is what i have been saying all along. Someone's opinions do not count as evidence for a theory. I have qouted statistics of growth for one. Those statistics are a matter of public record . i have told you the sources of these statistics. I have given you research papers on treatment of women in ancient greece. I have quoted the hadith from an authentic source. I quoted the Quran. I could probably write a book on sources alone and you would respond with an opinion. Hence the futility of our discussion.
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And why would you make this kind of assumption? I am not the one who is discussing my personal matters here or that of others. It is illogical for you to make assumptions about my personal matters.Fine I assume that your wife is a prostitute, are you gonna clarify that for me?
I adopted analogous tone, not confirmative tone. When you didn't clarify your position after post # 290, I assumed that you are likely discussing your personal situation. When you are having a discussion with someone [You started an argument with me in the first place], it is your responsibility to clarify your position. This is discussion ethics.It's my responsibility to clarify if im married or not, and it's not your responsibility to check your facts before making sweeping statements?
Seriously Legend123 , i am beginning to question whether this discussion is worthwhile or not.
You whine a lot.Like the way you judged me as a doormat on the basis of some posts?
Make up your mind.
You want to judge others, yet you do not want others to judge you.
Do you not see the clear hypocrisy?
And this is exactly where you are wrong. Tell me which Western society is progressive and in what sense?Signs that you don't understand reality.
1. I consider any society which is progressive as role model. If Islamic society is progressing and successful, I'll consider that path to follow. If at the moment, Western society is successful, I try to follow their principles.
I don't blindly label people burger and then go attack them , when they don't follow Islamic way of life.
Rapes and prostitution are small issues? Their are signs of corruption in Western societies in all walks of life actually. Institution of marriage is in decline in those societies, over there men try to screw even married women; cheating have reached epidemic proportions; promotion of pornography; too much objectification of women.2. No they have social decay. But our social decay is present in all walks of life. Theirs is just in social decay related to rapes and prostitution.
Sweeping generalization. In some parts of the country, yes. In the entire country, no.3. Pakistani women are victimized a lot. We can agree to disagree.
If you claim yourself to be a Muslim, then educate yourself about Islamic conceptions of right and wrong in proper fashion and gender rights as per Islamic values, specially role of men in Islam.4. I don't have to follow your thoughts Legend123 to make me complete Muslim. I have just as much a right to claim myself to be Muslim , then you do. There are Muslims in the West too, you know. Not just Pakistan.
Don't be a hypocrite.5. I really don't want to answer that.
Whatever analogies I presented, they were in a certain context. I blew nothing out of proportion.6. No the issues were brought by yourself. I merely brought the issue of dresses.
I pointed out Pakistan in the context of societal decay actually, I pointed out that when their is no accountability of bad/questionable behavior in a society, it spreads and corrupts the entire society. The purpose of this analogy was not to compare Pakistan with any other society but that "you don't compromise on bad/questionable behavior, period." Check post # 262 for confirmation.It turned into Islamic way of life, and then Pakistan was brought into it. So please, if you stuck to the dresses part, there would be no Pakistan thing going on.
When you started praising Pakistan as the best in the world, I obviously had no choice but to show you your delusion.
Those labels are used to shake people out of passivity and give them stronger sense of self-worth. They are used normally in discussions, specially in communities about relationships to shake people out of passivity and make them realize that they need to stand up for their values (if they are not in the wrong) and not let others walk all over them.7. No, it's rather you who is enforcing your opinion by making remarks like "Burger" and "Doormat". Had you refrained from making such remarks, I would never have told you that you live in delusions or feelings of grandeur。
Apny jo khud start kya, uska blame meray par na dalo. Please.
Well, this is your personal mindset but you are wrong here. Even a Western professional will tell you this.8. I don't believe in any boundaries in marriage. It's true. Marriage is made out of love. If your wife loves you, she will do whatever she wants for you to be happy.
If your marriage is just a contract, then off course you need boundaries.
I am not running away from this situation. Also, you need to check your tone in discussions, when did you cross the lines?I am pretty sure, if I start being personal with you, I would be handed a straight forward ban and you would run away.
Just because you are Mod, you are saying I should bear the heat
You have crossed the line several times in your responses to me by now. I pointed out some above. This is very serious matter. Don't do this.Ohh.... I tremble with fear.
You can put labels on me, yet no one can put labels on you.
Shall I bow before you , Your Majesty ?
Ban me if you can't bear the heat.
If it helps you sleep well at night, ban me permanently and keep living in denial.
Thank you!
170 + countries where Steam sells but PSN doesn't will lose access unless they use VPNfaraany3k said:I have heard that it is now unplayable in countries which do not support handful of third world countries not recognized by Sony like Pakistan. Steam is a true global platform.Then they cry that console gaming is dying.