MULTI [OT] Metro Exodus | Journey Beyond

CerebralTiger

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By non-real-time applications do you mean 3D animated films or games using baked solutions?
3D animated films.

But there is lol. SSR only works with the data that is available in a single given frame. Ray-traced reflection can incorporate off-frame data in the viewable frame. That IS reinvention of the wheel.
lol I did say SSR uses 2D ray-traces, which naturally means they're limited to the 2D screen space. I was citing their example to point out that vector calculations are performed using similar methods to those that are applied to 3D ray-traced reflections. Moreover, 3D ray-traced solutions have existed in non-real-time applications (see above) and also run on the same fundamental algorithms.

So, again, my questions is what do you mean by "in the form that it is today"? How is the underlying algorithmic logic behind ray-tracing in Pixar movies from a decade ago different from that of a real-time application like Metro Exodus?

Developers who want dynamism in games with higher levels of object interactivity and physics or dynamic changes to lighting in levels don't have much to gain from artists who created a static scene with fixed faked lighting. The more accurate solution on the other hand can cater to both.
And yet, developers who strive for such experiences on consoles today are doing just fine. Yes, the high degree of object interactivity and physics in Breath of the Wild doesn't offer a corresponding physically accurate behavior wrt to lighting. But I certainly don't care. If there is a cheap alternative, more power to it. If not, I don't see its value over the lighting that's already there in the game.

End result is the same isn't it? Your bullets don't land where you intend them to due to inaccurate collision with geometry.
Approximated collisions aren't perfect, but they get the job done most of the time. The only other alternative is collisions based on the meshes themselves, which isn't performance friendly.

This draws an interesting parallel with the discussion at hand. Mesh-based collisions are physically accurate, but they're taxing on hardware. Approximated collisions using simpler shapes with lesser vertices are great for performance, but they're not as accurate. However, if the artist baking approximated collisions does a good job with their placement, then the end result is just as pleasing (not visually, obviously :p).

So what you're saying is, the baked, non ray-traced GI solution on consoles and PC, where artists have "more control", is indistinguishable to you artistically from a ray-traced GI solution where artists lose control over the scene. So you get more physically accurate lighting while retaining the artistic quality?
In the case of Metro Exodus, yes, but artistic quality is dependent on the developer. Remember how CDPR dumbed down the Witcher 2's lighting model so it could run on the the Xbox 360. The end result on the X360 version looked more visually appealing to me. They did a pretty decent job there.

but that does not mean they don't come with any limitations or always give you superior results.
Of course, I don't deny that they have limitations and don't always produce a superior result. It's why devs use a mix of both baked and dynamic lighting.

RTX is making better solutions viable and I don't see anything wrong with that.
I acknowledged that it's a great technological advancement at the very start of this discussion and that it's great for the PC space.

I don't know that gives you the idea that proponents of ray-tracing don't want any of those advancements lol
Can't have everything on a limited budget.

How many games that you enjoyed can you list from this generation that have actually given priority to physics, interactivity, AI over better shaders, shadows, SSS or SSRs?
I listed more complex shaders as something that does and will continue to produce visually pleasing results. You aren't paying attention :p

I'm more than happy with the results of existing GI solutions and would rather like to see the performance budget spent towards other advancements, such as increased world interactivity, more complex AI, more complex shaders etc.
At the moment, these examples come to mind.

- Breath of the Wild, a game that takes physics-based puzzle solving and interactivity to another level. Geometry was on the simple side, which is how they pulled it off on mobile hardware. Can't wait for the next Zelda game to continue this trend of emergent game design.
- Dynamic cover in shooters that is both destructible (Battlefield series) and/or reacts to world physics (Uncharted series).
- AI interactions and world simulation in Red Dead Redemption 2.

Also, to have better physics and interactivity, you absolutely need to focus primarily on a real-time lighting model, while baking elsewhere to achieve your primary target. So your preferences and how to achieve them are at odds with each other. Unless you want the industry to regress in terms of visuals.
Lighting doesn't have to look physically accurate for a game's physics to behave in a physically correct manner. You're missing this essential point. So, no, to have better physics and interactivity, you certainly don't need ray-traced lighting. There are other cheaper real-time solutions that can work. lol that Frostbite engine slide is literally talking about graphical features, not gameplay.

Are you not enjoying DMC5 which is basically just a visually better version of a game that came out 11 years ago or is inverse kinematics (never seen that before lol) really game changing in DMC5?
Inverse kinematics is most certainly a game changer for the series, as it wasn't there in previous DMC games. It improves playability and traversals over complex geometry. So, yes, why wouldn't it be a game changer? Uncharted 4/LL also make great use of it.

Why did CDPR switch from canned movement to IK for the Witcher 3? Did it improve playability over The Witcher 2? The use of physically correct behavior for gameplay is way way more important than the use of physically correct behavior for graphical features.

To explore this terrain, a rebooted animation system is also in place for the Xbox One, PS4 and PC versions. Jumping, vaulting, grabbing and diving animations are added to Geralt's repertoire, allowing him to navigate the world in more flexible ways. Motion is no longer rigidly scripted as it was in the previous game. "We use animation IK (inverse kinematics)," says Mamais, "that's so you can grab things realistically, and movement on terrain is realistic and so forth."

Inverse kinematics - as also seen in God of War: Ascension - allows each foot-step and ledge-grab to land dynamically, based on the characteristics of the terrain. Given The Witcher 3's push for a landscape with a greater sense of verticality, ranging from fjords and swampy marshlands to medieval cities, the new animation system proves a necessary move to avoid uncanny scripted movements.
https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2014-the-witcher-3-tech-analysis
 
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Necrokiller

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So, again, my questions is what do you mean by "in the form that it is today"? How is the underlying algorithmic logic behind ray-tracing in Pixar movies from a decade ago different from that of a real-time application like Metro Exodus?
A technology that was limited to offline render farms in Pixar movies over a decade ago is now doable real-time in a game and I have to explain why thats impressive? I think this is probably the biggest complement you can give to 4A Games :)

And yet, developers who strive for such experiences on consoles today are doing just fine.
Yeah, tons of developers are doing fine. While a select few currently are doing better than them.

Rumor also has it that Polyphony Digital is developing inhouse real-time ray tracing. I guess they weren't doing just fine? :hah:

Of course, I don't deny that they have limitations and don't always produce a superior result. It's why devs use a mix of both baked and dynamic lighting.
And real-time dynamic solutions are the foundational technology behind it, not baked which are supplementary. This is what i'm arguing for basically.

Can't have everything on a limited budget.
This discussion was about ray-traced GI implementation in Exodus before it got sidetracked to the lack thereof on limited budget consoles.

I listed more complex shaders as something that does and will continue to produce visually pleasing results. You aren't paying attention :p
I was just told games don't need to look great to play great. Are these enhanced shaders essential for the game to "play great"? Nope.

- Breath of the Wild, a game that takes physics-based puzzle solving and interactivity to another level. Geometry was on the simple side, which is how they pulled it off on mobile hardware. Can't wait for the next Zelda game to continue this trend of emergent game design.
- Dynamic cover in shooters that is both destructible (Battlefield series) and/or reacts to world physics (Uncharted series).
- AI interactions and world simulation in Red Dead Redemption 2.
Thats a terribly small list, as expected lol Haven't played RDR2 but BF is the only game that actually advance the medium in an impactful manner for me. Though I don't think BoTW was revelatory. Since your counter argument to RT is how it has existed in animated films decades ago, what new scientific breakthroughs and laws of physics has BoTW discovered that the world doesn't know about? lol But I guess I'll give it that. Sure I suppose you can count Zelda too.

And one could say everything RDR2 strives for comes to the detriment of responsiveness, playability and its lack of mission freedom undermines its AI as well so why consider it an achievement? [emoji14] This much has been documented and even present in your mini review.

The point in asking this was making you realize how little games have advanced in gameplay and how focus has been almost exclusively on visuals. All your examples are debatable and were predictable. 3 out of 4 have heavily focused on graphics above everything else.

lol that Frostbite engine slide is literally talking about graphical features and how to enhance visual, not gameplay.
Its quite literally talking about how visual features need to evolve to support the gameplay changes, unless you want be stuck in the Wii era and not have both lol

Inverse kinematics is most certainly a game changer for the series, as it wasn't there in previous DMC games. It improves playability and traversals over complex geometry. So, yes, why wouldn't it be a game changer?
Because it pretty much still plays the exactly the same as DMC4. I don't think I had to account for inverse kinematics to pull off combos lol Maybe the full game leverages them in a meaningful manner? I'll get around to it eventually and report back [emoji14]
 
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CerebralTiger

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Apr 12, 2007
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A technology that was limited to offline render farms in Pixar movies over a decade ago is now doable real-time in a game and I have to explain why thats impressive. I think this is probably the biggest complement you can give to 4A Games :)
Rendered offline using the same underlying algorithms. Hence, not reinventing the wheel. Rather, incorporating it in its API for use in real-time scenarios because the hardware now allows it.

Also, I would largely credit Nvidia for the above. 4A Games is just one of several studios Nvidia partnered with in this venture.

Yeah, tons of developers are doing fine. While a select few currently are doing better than them.
Metro Exodus certainly isn't one of them for me, as it doesn't strive for those kind of experiences. Still a decent game, though.

And real-time dynamic solutions are the foundational technology behind it, not baked which are supplementary. This is what i'm arguing for basically.
And those existing GI solutions, comprising of both dynamic and baked lighting, produce just as visually appealing results as ray-traced GI does. This is what I'm arguing for basically.

I never said that a game can run solely work with baked lights. They are indeed supplementary, but make up a large part of the lighting model in most games, because dynamic lights are fewer in comparison.

This discussion was about ray-traced GI implementation on PC, not the lack thereof on limited budget consoles.
The discussion drifted off to a lot of off-topic things after you questioned my sentiment about console developers prioritizing other aspects over ray-traced lighting :p

Are they essential for the game to "play great" though? Nope.
You're taking things out of context. I never said better shaders are essential for gameplay. Here's what I said:

Personally, I wouldn't want ray traced lighting to trickle down to the console space until hardware is powerful enough to make its inclusion a trivial matter. I'm more than happy with the results of existing GI solutions and would rather like to see the performance budget spent towards other advancements, such as increased world interactivity, more complex AI, more complex shaders etc.
Thats a terribly small list lol
They're just examples that came to mind. I'm sure there are others.

Edit: Here are a few more:

- Gravity Rush 2
- Nex Machina
- Claybook

I'll VM you more examples when I recall them lol.

And RdR2 for clunky controls isnt a good example.
I'm highlighting specific aspects of games that positively affect gameplay. If overall gameplay were the criteria, I wouldn't put Battlefield's name in the list.

Its talking about how visual features need to support the gameplay changes, unless you want be stuck in the Wii era lol
Yes that is what its talking about, but it isn't ray-traced lighting naturally, since these slides are from 2011. It led to the GI solution DICE has in place for Frostbite3. They will most likely incorporate ray-traced GI in their next Battlefield or Battlefront game, but the results of their own GI solution won't be any less visually appealing for me, and I've said the same since the start of this discussion.

I don't think I had to account for inverse kinematics every step of the way to pull off combos lol Maybe the full game leverages them in a meaningful manner? I'll get around to it eventually and report back.
The traversal and interactivity with world objects is better. Jumping off of walls, platforms, and enemies (once you've unlocked the ability to do so) feels really fluid. These are all integral to gameplay. Anyways, while you're at it, also get around to replaying TW2 and then TW3, and report back and let me know if you think the latter leveraged the use of IK in a meaningful manner. The studio certainly thinks so, as do I :p



P.S. This turning into another one of those @Chandoo vs @Necrokiller "your move, my move" debates, so I'll respectfully take my leave. At this rate, I'll end up in the top 4 posters like you guys :hah:
 
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Chandoo

Resi Evil 4 > Your fav game.
Jan 19, 2007
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P.S. This turning into another one of those @Chandoo vs @Necrokiller "your move, my move" debates, so I'll respectfully take my leave. At this rate, I'll end up in the top 4 posters like you guys :hah:
If you notice I've stopped doing that after a few posts :p

Necro is the same 'reply to everything' mindset that I was back when PG was new.

Also, the post count thing is always going to be a stigma on me :p my post count is from back in the way when Chit Chat Cafe's post count used to be counted, before it stopped counting.
 

Necrokiller

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Apr 16, 2009
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If you notice I've stopped doing that after a few posts :p
Hahahaha nobody had noticed bro, keep telling yourself that, plenty of evidence against it :hah:

my post count is from back in the way when Chit Chat Cafe's post count used to be counted, before it stopped counting.


Like I said, keep telling yourself that man :laugh1:


@CerebralTiger Kind of strange to write another wall of text in the end and take your leave lol

But I concede. I was getting tired of it. All I did was post some pictures and Chandoo turned it into this lol

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk
 
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nafu

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docs.google.com
So, I started this game and from the first two mission, its seems like a thorough yet slow paced game having scarce resources, specifically the weapons. Not to mention the Graphics and environment is exemplary, to say the least.
 
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JANARIOO

DEMONxSHADOW
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You shot her? Did you get bad karma after that?

Sent from my Android

yes i killed here some sound came duno wat karma is that lol but loved to take her life out...... felt satisfied :p

- - - Updated - - -

So, I started this game and from the first two mission, its seems like a thorough yet slow paced game having scarce resources, specifically the weapons. Not to mention the Graphics and environment is exemplary, to say the least.
its a great story game.
 

Chandoo

Resi Evil 4 > Your fav game.
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https://www.metrothegame.com/news/ranger-update

We’re very happy to announce the release of the ‘Ranger Update’ - our first major patch for Metro Exodus, for all platforms. This is a significant update that adds a host of new features, makes improvements across the board and addresses numerous bugs and issues.
We’d like to thank our players for your help in identifying these issues. Our goal has always been to ship the most polished product we can at launch, but we humbly acknowledge that some things can slip through even the most thorough QA. Thank you again for your patience and support.
The ‘Ranger Update’ is approximately 6 GB in size and is available to download now. Full patch notes are below, but here are the headlines:

NEW GAME +

On completion of the campaign, you can now re-play in New Game+ mode, granting access to all weapons and attachments unlocked through prior play-throughs.
New Game + also allows to you to adjust a range of variables to create your own personal and uniquely challenging experience, and comes with new Achievements / Trophies. More details below…

DEVELOPER COMMENTARY

Available through New Game +, enabling Developer Commentary allows you to find special tape players on which members of the 4A Games team discuss some of the design choices that went into making Metro Exodus in that area.

IMPROVED CONTROLLER RESPONSIVENESS

While the Hotfix changes were already well received, we’ve added a 4th Controller Sensitivity Preset with more tweaks to sensitivity, improved aim assist, and better ‘dead zone’ per platform.

PLATFORM SPECIFIC IMPROVEMENTS AND NEW FEATURES

We’ve added Mouse and Keyboard support for Xbox One, further improved RTX and DLSS support on PC, Dual Shock Controller Light support for PS4 and many more.

GENERAL PERFORMANCE, BALANCE AND GAMEPLAY OPTIMISATIONS

A raft of improvements across the board that improve the overall gameplay experience based on bugs reported, desired polish, and direct feedback/feature requests from the community, including things like a Volume Slider specifically for VO, and more.

CRASH / BUG FIXES AND IMPROVEMENTS

We’ve fixed numerous crashes - some from your descriptions, and some from the crash dumps you have submitted to us. We’ve only listed a few below, but you should expect a big improvement to stability in this update. Thank you for continuing to help us out!

FULL UKRAINIAN LOCALISATION ADDED

We’re proud to offer Metro Exodus fully localised for Ukraine, the country where 4A Games was born.

Read on for more information on each topic, and please note:
Level specific content fixes or changes can only be fully applied to a level when it is started from the beginning either through natural progression, or the chapters menu. If you try to load an existing save within a level, the updates for that level will not be applied to that existing save. Updates will apply to all subsequent levels progressed to with that save.
 

nafu

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Jan 25, 2010
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docs.google.com
I actually ended the game yesterday. It had an emotional ending I believe, which made it quite special for me.
In the game, especially in the last mission, the music was totally loved.

I'll definitely try 'Ranger update', sometime later.
 

JANARIOO

DEMONxSHADOW
Global Mod
Dec 17, 2008
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I actually ended the game yesterday. It had an emotional ending I believe, which made it quite special for me.
In the game, especially in the last mission, the music was totally loved.

I'll definitely try 'Ranger update', sometime later.

which ending did u get..
 
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